Re: correction RE: [xmca] Reference for ontological and phylogeneticlanguagecomparison

From: Mike Cole (lchcmike@gmail.com)
Date: Fri Jan 12 2007 - 19:44:18 PST


Paul--
He wrote a wonderful article in mind culture and activty THE journal. use
the lchc google search to see what is on xmca
mike

On 1/12/07, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> mike,
>
> At sometime in the early 90s Arne R. wrote a wonderful piece for xmca
> (maybe not even called that at that early date) in which he looked at the
> various threads concerning the evolution of language as we know it now.
> Perhaps someone knows the exact whereabouts of that short piece. He made a
> very good argument looking at the emergence of verbal symbolism and the
> impact that external events (e.g., the Ice Ages) might have had as
> punctuating points forcing one kind of behavior into another use.
>
> Paul Dillon
>
> *Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Folks, you are confusing me.
> Phylogeny is the history of human life of which human phylogeny is one
> tiny
> branch.
> During phylogeny a new form of life slowly and unevening occurred in which
> achievements of
> prior generations began to modify the biology/behavior/psychology/social
> life of creatures that
> evenuate, along one branch in homo sapiens.
>
> To say that phylogenetic evolution is a cultural historical proces////////
> is either simply a confusion
> or it implicitly marks that last millisecond of evolution when homo
> sapiens
> and homo sapiens sapiens
> emerged.
>
> My two tsarist kopeks
> mike
>
> On 1/11/07, SungWon Hwang wrote:
> >
> > Hi Eric,
> > I think it would better to see phylogenetic evolution as a
> > cultural-historical process mediated by object-oriented human
> activities.
> > Culturally historically new forms of activity emerge in and through
> > individual actions that concretely realize cultural possibilities and
> > achieve collective motives.
> > SungWon
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > On Behalf Of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:49 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: correction RE: [xmca] Reference for ontological and
> > > phylogeneticlanguagecomparison
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael and Tony:
> > >
> > > Thank you for the useful information. What cultural influences would
> > > produce the phylogentic development?
> > >
> > > eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony Whitson
> > >
> > > du> cc: Mike Cole
> > >
> > > Sent by: Subject: correction RE:
> > [xmca]
> > > Reference for ontological and phylogenetic
> > > xmca-bounces who-is-at web languagecomparison
> > > er.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > >
> > > 01/11/2007 09:39
> > > AM
> > > Please respond
> > > to "eXtended
> > > Mind, Culture,
> > > Activity"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I inserted "phylogenic" in the wrong place before. It's fixed below.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Tony Whitson wrote:
> > >
> > > > What a nice, useful analogy Michael.
> > > >
> > > > I'm thinking about how to make it more precisely parallel. The
> > > (ontogenic)
> > > > development of language ability in the child could be compared with
> > the
> > > > (ontogenic) development of a player's football skills (I'm thinking
> > > > basketball might work better, since -- at least in US "gridiron"
> > football
> > > --
> > > > most players on the field have specialized roles not requiring as
> > great
> > a
> > > > range of versatile skills as in basketball [IMHO: a defensive left
> > guard
> > > > might think otherwise]). So, the development of a [basketball]
> > player's
> > > > skills would not recapitulate the (phylogenic) development of the
> game
> > > itself. Skills
> > > > that might have had value in the game as it was played in the early
> > > history
> > > > of the game might have no value for players today, and would not be
> > part
> > > of
> > > > a developmental stage that today's players go through on their way
> to
> > > > development of skills they use today.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Wolff-Michael Roth
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:22 AM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Cc: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Reference for ontological and phylogenetic
> > > > languagecomparison
> > > >
> > > > A CHAT perspective built on the dialectic of individual and
> > > > collective, the person realizes cultural possibilities available to
> > > > any one else. From this perspective, children grow up in a different
> > > > material context, hearing different utterances in the context of
> > > > different situation. This would lead to the contention that ontogeny
> > > > does not recapitulate phylogeny, much in the same way that a present
> > > > day football game would not recapitulate the first football game
> ever
> > > > played or its precursor. (The referent of "football" can be taken
> the
> > > > British or American way).
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > On 11-Jan-07, at 6:46 AM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dan I. Slobin has an article, "From Ontogenesis to phylogenesis:
> what
> > > > can
> > > > child language tell us about language evolution?" that appears in IN
> > > > the
> > > > j. Langer, S.T. Parker edited volume, "BIology and Knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > The questions he poses in the article are: Does linguistic ontogeny
> > > > recapitulate phylogeny?, Does linguistic diachrony recapitulate
> > > > ontogony?
> > > > OD children create grammatical forms?
> > > >
> > > > good read but not a CHAT perspective but rather biologicaly based.
> > > >
> > > > eric
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
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> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tony Whitson
> > > UD School of Education
> > > NEWARK DE 19716
> > >
> > > twhitson@udel.edu
> > > _______________________________
> > >
> > > "those who fail to reread
> > > are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
> > > -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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