Mike and Michael,
perhaps Miettinen's article is interesting for you:
Miettinen, R.(2006). Epistemology of Transformative Material Activity:John
Dewey`s Pragmatism and Cultural-Historical Activity Theory". Journal for
the Theory of Social Behaviour 36:4, 389-408.
Katarina
On Sun, December 17, 2006 18:27, Mike Cole wrote:
> The invocation of Anselm Strauss strikes me as very useful, Michael. In
> our
> work in long lasting idiocultures participated in by kids and undergrads,
> the kids are, at various times and
> for various valued activities, more expert than the undergrads and there
> is
> a constantly shifting balance of knowledge/expertise/helpfulness over the
> course of a year or more as different
> participants come and go. Our undergrads actually come to interpreting
> zopeds as REQUIRING a mixture of play and learning/teaching as a result of
> their experience. We would need to know if we were talking about cases
> where
> we want to invoke a distinctive notion of development or we were talking
> about learning. I believe I could come up with some for our situation.
> Where
> might we find them for Dr./Nurse cases? Perhaps in Strauss? What about
> Middleton? Some concrete examples would help. But the general idea
> certainly
> fits my experience.
>
> As to Dewey on Vygotsky. Who gets angry at the suggestion that Vygotsky
> read
> Dewey? There is textual evidence showing he did (although I do not much
> like
> some of LSV's
> interpretations!). It is another matter altogether to place a lot of
> weight
> on the idea that they met, exchanged ideas, etc.
>
> mike
>
> On 12/17/06, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I have been reading some of the discussion on Zoped and have been
>> wondering more and more if Anselm Strauss' ideas on negotiated ordering
>> might have some important implications for the way some people view the
>> Zoped as a concept. Strauss suggested that the ordering in activity -
>> he
>> did not really talk about development (he was Mead's student) - but
>> concentrated more on the ongoing dynamic activity itself. What he
>> suggested
>> was that the relationship between those who were in charge and knew what
>> to
>> do, and those who looked to those people in charge, was dynamic and
>> dependent on the problems that were being faced. The hierarchy and also
>> the
>> allocation of resources (which I find interesting and possibly one of
>> the
>> core issues) is predetermined. But in the process of the ongoing
>> activity,
>> as the problems changed, the actual ordering within the community
>> changes to
>> meet the problem at hand. One of his most interesting studies was of an
>> emergency room in San Francisco. While on paper and in allocation of
>> resources doctors were the titula heads of the emergency room, when
>> crises
>> occurred there was a reordering of roles, where the nurses became the
>> defacto heads of the activity, and the doctors looked to the nurses and
>> understood this. I think one of the problems is that what happens is
>> that
>> what happens in process is then not re-translated into understanding.
>> The
>> doctors re-claim their roles as experts after the crisis and from what I
>> can
>> tell make little effort to share resources with the nurses.
>>
>> Perhaps negotiated ordering has important implications for the Zoped as
>> well (is such a concept applicable to Vygotsky? Well I continue to
>> believe
>> that Vygotsky was reading Dewey in his early career and was influenced
>> by
>> him - but of course even saying this gets a lot of people angry. And
>> Anselm
>> Strauss was working from a base developed by Mead and Dewey). From what
>> I
>> have been reading, one of the things people are trying to explore is
>> this
>> notion is that there is some sense of negotiated ordering in the Zoped
>> where, when facing different problems, different members of a learning
>> community take different positions in the learning/development equation
>> (can
>> we really differentiate learning from development and would we want
>> to?). This maybe works especially well if we are looking at learning
>> from a
>> dialectical perspective - because what needs to happen for learning to
>> occur
>> is for something to make you question what you are thinking, to cloud
>> the
>> issues that you were sure of. I think of Piaget and the early work he
>> did
>> with his own children. Wasn't Piaget actually learning - in a
>> dialectical
>> fashion - from his own children. I think of my relationship with my own
>> children and I know they did things that completely threw me for a loop,
>> completely made me re-think issues I thought were set in my mind. They
>> were
>> creating a natural disturbance in my Zoped. But by admitting this I
>> have to
>> admit I learn from my three year old - not in a cute type way, but in a
>> real
>> way where I have to give up my mantle of expert in our relationship.
>>
>> Yet we have a great deal invested in this culture of the expert - the
>> idea
>> that the expert teaches and the student learns. I hate to say it -
>> because
>> I'd rather stay away from economic issues - but it is also a part of our
>> capitalist base and how we allocate resources. We pay experts more
>> because
>> they are experts, we hire them as consultants because they are experts,
>> we
>> let them act as gate keepers and decision makers because they are
>> experts. I wonder to what extent Vygotsky has been assimilated in to
>> this
>> entire culture of experts?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Mike Cole
>> Sent: Sun 12/17/2006 10:47 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zopeds at the cultural historical level
>>
>>
>>
>> Andy-- When you write:
>> Hegel does not talk about "assisting" the
>> learning subject, but rather of subordinating them.
>>
>> I think you get near the heart of Yrjo's thought experiment in
>> "development
>> as breaking away" and
>> socialization theories (which, heaven help us, are often the implicit
>> theories behind talks concerning
>> zopeds). The adults in Yrjo's (Hoag's) story are seeking to "raise
>> up/normalize" the children by subordinating
>> them to a social order with lots of rules and strictures as the means to
>> their "development", e.g. growing up
>> to replicate that order. Breaking away is the only way UP as well as
>> OUT.
>> But, of course, such subordination
>> is talked about as benevolent assistance.
>>
>> What makes it all very complicated even in the ontogentic case is that
>> subordination and assistance are so
>> closely related to each other. The duality of structure? After all, the
>> core
>> of the method of dual stimulation,
>> in Vygotsky's words, is to "subordinate oneself to an external stimulus"
>> as
>> a means of achieving self control
>> "from the outside" in order to break free of local situational
>> constraints.
>>
>> As problematic as this is at the ontogenetic, intergenerational level,
>> it
>> simply gets more so at the culturalhistorical
>> level.
>>
>> Might not institutions such as, for example, the National Academy of
>> Sciences, be a social instrument whereby certain
>> individuals are chosen to act as more knowledgable peers, who society
>> uses
>> as a means to its own self development?
>> Or, if one approves less secular social instrumentalities, the synod of
>> bishops?
>>
>> Thoughts for a spinkly sunday morning where the sun is making its
>> reappearance after a too-brief visit of some rain.
>> mike
>>
>> On 12/17/06, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't know, Hegel was theorising modernity not multiculturalism. But
>> > according to Hegel social learning is not a process of imitation, or
>> > civilisation "rubbing off" on people, but of the production and use of
>> the
>> > artefacts of a society in the production of the needs of that society
>> > according to its laws. True, Hegel does not talk about "assisting" the
>> > learning subject, but rather of subordinating them.
>> > Andy
>> > At 06:07 PM 15/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>> > >Andy,
>> > >
>> > > I totally agree with your extended analysis of Hegel. The problem
>> is
>> > > that when we look at the reality of the relations that arise between
>> > > conquered and conquerers the patterns of assimilation are really
>> quite
>> > > different. The conquered often "shuck and jive", move slowly,
>> withdraw
>> > > into smaller and smaller universes where they preserve the core of
>> their
>> > > identity prior to being conquered. Eric Wolf called this the "gods
>> > > beneath the altar". As I remember Benjamin's "Theses on Historical
>> > > Materialism", he pointed to this: histories are stopped but not
>> > > necessarily eliminated, these chronological frameworks within which
>> the
>> > > phylogenetic zopeds exist, but they are waiting to begin
>> again. History
>> > > isn't unilinear, something Marx saw quite clearly in the
>> ethnological
>> > > studies he was undertaking at the end of his life. For Hegel,
>> history
>> > > was unilinear and Reason was the telos toward which everything
>> cultural
>> > > and historical moved. Not so Marx.
>> > >
>> > > Another important thing I remember about the hegelian master-slave
>> > > dialectic concerns the role of work in developing the universal
>> essence
>> > > that later becomes the basis of the post-feudal civilizations. Very
>> > > materialistic really.
>> > >
>> > > The question I think about a lot, especially in light of the
>> "andean
>> > > cosmovision" movements, of which Evo Morales is a happy surfer, is
>> > > whether the elements that have been conserved can be developed again
>> > with
>> > > their own dynamic, that the "other" way of putting the pieces
>> together
>> > > can become a dynamic in it's own right. There is a very advanced
>> > > movement down here in that direction. Right now, the City of Villa
>> el
>> > > Salvador, originally a "squatter's settlement" to the south of Lima
>> > > (something very comparable to El Alto's relationship with La Paz in
>> > > Bolivia) is hosting a "Reawaken the Native Gods (wakas)" reunion,
>> > > inviting shamans from the highlands to Paracas (the third most
>> important
>> > > ceremonial site at the time of the Conquest) for three days to pray
>> and
>> > > dance and revitalize those spiritual forces. A lot of people here
>> move
>> > > in that direction which isn't a simple nationalism since it is
>> > > pan-Andean, refers to the non-European, to another ontology as one
>> > friend
>> > > puts it.
>> > >
>> > > Like I said, I don't think Hegel sheds much light on this process
>> or
>> > > how the conquered manage to preserve that sense of identity in codes
>> > that
>> > > resist rational penetration.
>> > >
>> > > Paul
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>> > > Paul, I let my contribution to this thread drop, because I wasn't
>> sure
>> > how
>> > >much a compare-and-contrast of Hegel's master-servant and Vygotsky's
>> > ZOPED
>> > >was useful. But anyway ...
>> > >
>> > >The essence of the master-slave dialectic is this (IMO): the master
>> > >incorporates the material energies of the servant into its own system
>> of
>> > >needs and their satisfaction, so that all the artefacts of the
>> conquered
>> > >subject are destroyed as artefacts and their materiality (the land,
>> > >products, etc and the bodies of the human individuals) is
>> re-organised
>> as
>> > >part of the subjectivity of the coloniser (their meaning is changed),
>> by
>> > >virtue of the dominated people labouring under the direction of the
>> > master,
>> > >meeting the master's needs according to the methods of the master,
>> the
>> > >servant's lands and bodies being redefined as resources for meeting
>> the
>> > >needs of the master. The servant not only loses all control of their
>> own
>> > >activity, but are forced into activity which they neither understand
>> nor
>> > >see the need for. Thus the "unhappy consciousness." But as Paul says,
>> by
>> > >performing the activity defined by the coloniser's subjectivity, they
>> > >become officienados in that activity, thus arises (development and)
>> > >self-consciousness.
>> > >
>> > >The servant's material activity mediates between the master's needs
>> > >(consciousness) and their satisfaction in the form of culture; the
>> > master's
>> > >culture and consciousness mediates between the slave's activity and
>> their
>> > >consciousness of that activity.
>> > >
>> > >The shared core of this conception with Vygotsky's ZPD is that of the
>> > >dominant culture, represented by a dominant subject, determines both
>> the
>> > >activity that the 'learner' must perform and the needs being
>> fulfilled;
>> > >doing without understanding leads to understanding of doing,
>> ultimately,
>> > >the non-subject becomes a free and equal member of the dominant
>> activity
>> > an
>> > >culture by learning to reproduce it by their own activity.
>> > >
>> > >For Hegel this is the dialectic by which *self-consciousness
>> emerges*;
>> it
>> > >is the dialectic relating subjective consciousness and objective
>> > >consciousness.
>> > >
>> > >I don't know if that help anything or not. I'm not sure.
>> > >
>> > >Andy
>> > >At 01:45 PM 15/12/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>> > > >mike,
>> > > >
>> > > > I've just gone back to read some xmca posts -- been computer
>> deprived
>> > > > for a bit and stuck to using internet cabinets in Lima for very
>> brief
>> > > > stuff. I had erased a lot of messages but found that I hadn't read
>> the
>> > > > one you originally posted, to which I'm now replying, probably
>> > postponing
>> > > > it until I could read more carefully. Then I went to the xmca
>> website
>> > to
>> > > > check the thrread in detail and found it had bifurcated, someone
>> > posted a
>> > > > reply, changing the subject name to something about more competent
>> > > > peers. That thread grew a lot and I haven't read all those
>> messages
>> so
>> > > > I'm not sure whether the original thread concerning
>> > cultural-historical
>> > > > zopeds continued there.
>> > > >
>> > > > The way you phrased the problem was quite clear and Andy's
>> response
>> > > > about conquest and colonization most interesting. resonating with
>> an
>> > > > earlier exchange around the book about native american science. In
>> the
>> > > > 1500s the conquering Europeans were arguably less culturally
>> advanced
>> > in
>> > > > many fields of human practices (engineering, mathematics,
>> astronomy,
>> > > > agriculture, institutional administration, just to mention a few)
>> than
>> > > > the people they conquered. They really only had an advantage in
>> > > > weaponry. And there was absolutely no zoped functioning in either
>> > > > direction it seems, just a master-slave relation. For Hegel that
>> > > > relation turns into a pyrrhic victory followed by the esse"Unhappy
>> > > > Consciousness" in which the dominated slave realizes its own nce
>> to
>> be
>> > > > the negation of the Individual and the true universality of
>> > consciousness
>> > > > as something trans-individual. The slave realizes that s/he is the
>> > truth
>> > > > of the Master. I always recall the scene from the movie Spartacus
>> when
>> > the
>> > > > Roman general asks: Who is Spartacus? and one by one all of the
>> > > > rebelling slaves stand up and claim to Spartacus. Then they are
>> all
>> > > > crucified, of course. But that transition isn't an example of a
>> zoped
>> > so
>> > > > Hegel isn't much help here.
>> > > >
>> > > > The problem of more advanced cultural forms is certainly an
>> important
>> > > > one, but when I wrote the query concerning the historical
>> dimensions
>> > of
>> > > > the zoped, I wasn't really thinking about the problem in quite the
>> way
>> > > > you phrased it, that is I wasn't really thinking about more or
>> less
>> > > > advanced cultures as defined in terms of specific practices (I
>> don't
>> > > > think it would be possible to specify that one culture is superior
>> to
>> > > > another in any absolute sense, but yes at the level of specific
>> > > > practices), I was really wondering about the transmission of
>> customs
>> > and
>> > > > habits that seems to occur without any conscious teaching
>> involved,
>> > but
>> > > > which is part of the package when a child is learning the basics,
>> that
>> > > > historical dimension that moves at the backs of people, without
>> their
>> > > > knowledge or awareness. I don't see how we can doubt that this
>> goes
>> > on;
>> > > > e.g., learning racism implicitly in nursery rhymes, learning the
>> > > > individualism (looking out for good old number one first) also
>> seems
>> > to
>> > > > qualify as something that isn't so much taught as a specific skill
>> > > > imparted by a more knowledgeable member of the group, but as a
>> > corrolary
>> > > > to learning itself within certain cultures, just as learning that
>> the
>> > > > family comes first is dominant in others. It's very clear to me
>> that
>> > > > there is a big gap between people's real morality and their ideal
>> one
>> > and
>> > > > that practicality (living in the world with the skills we've
>> learned)
>> > is
>> > > > usually the reason given to explain the difference between the
>> > > > two. Yeah, it'd be great to turn the other cheek but in reality no
>> one
>> > > > does because that's just not the way the world works.
>> > > >
>> > > > If such is the case, that these dimensions, primarily moral and
>> > ethical
>> > > > ones, are transmitted first in this kind of "blind" way , then the
>> > > > modification of these levels must depend on something other than
>> the
>> > kind
>> > > > of direct teaching that characterizes a zoped.
>> > > >
>> > > > Perhaps the examples given by Yrjo point in this direction more
>> than
>> I
>> > > > realized and I'll have to go back and look at that: but as I
>> remember,
>> > > > these "expansions" involved breaking out, destroying old
>> structures,
>> > and
>> > > > clearing a space for new ones. What bigger space than a raft on
>> the
>> > > > Mississippi River? The idea that a zoped is a conversation with a
>> > future
>> > > > seems very useful to me, the question of course: what is that
>> > > > future? Andy's statement that phylogenesis is about "pulling
>> oneself
>> > up
>> > > > by the bootstraps" enters here. But really, how is it possible to
>> > avoid
>> > > > teleology?
>> > > >
>> > > > Lately I've been very much impressed what could be called
>> "historical
>> > > > traumas", events and processes extending over a period of time,
>> that
>> > > > leave what I can only describe metaphorically as topography within
>> > which
>> > > > the rivers of consciousness/mind flow. This a result of living
>> again
>> > in
>> > > > the Andes where a suppressed past is constantly whispering beneath
>> the
>> > > > present day-to-day activities. There are major traumas: the
>> Conquest
>> > in
>> > > > the Americas , extirpation of idolatries=attempted destruction of
>> > > > indigenous belief systems, whose effects are still reverberating
>> after
>> > > > 500 years, and there are lesser ones, like the social-political
>> > violence
>> > > > that lasted in the Central Andes for about 15 years (1980-1995)
>> but
>> > whose
>> > > > effects shape the way parents relate to their children, silences,
>> all
>> > > > those things left unsaid, The same song sung by both sides of the
>> war:
>> > > > Flor de la Retama. .
>> > > >
>> > > > When Zlatcko addressed my initial post in which I suggested that
>> Paolo
>> > > > Freire's notion of situation-limits (something he got from Karl
>> > Jaspers)
>> > > > had a bearing in the question of what happens in a zoped, he
>> brought
>> > up
>> > > > the point of sufficiently grounded evidence as to what might be
>> the
>> > > > phylogenetic strands of development. This is quite difficult to
>> > address
>> > > > obviously. The vanguard of the proletariat lacks any meaning when
>> one
>> > > > can't really identify a proletariat. China inundates the world's
>> > markets
>> > > > with well-made and embarrrasingly inexpensive goods that undermine
>> the
>> > > > industrial working classes of Europe and America. We come back to
>> > > > cultures--where do we find the universal basis? is there one?
>> > > >
>> > > > Hegel's unhappy slaves found the universal meaning through work
>> which
>> > > > was of course social activity. Perhaps the very course, as
>> Ilyenkov
>> > > > suggested, is something that's laid out there before us, that some
>> > groups
>> > > > of the larger society will instinctively understand in its
>> teleology
>> > just
>> > > > by their position within the system.
>> > > >
>> > > > This all written in the old notion of xmca where half-baked ideas
>> were
>> > OK.
>> > > >
>> > > > Paul Dillon
>> > > >
>> > > > __________________________________________________
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>> > >
>> > >Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
>> AIM
>> > >identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
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>> > Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
>> AIM
>> > identity: AndyMarxists mobile 0409 358 651
>> >
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-- Katarina A. Rodina MSc in Speech-Language Therapy, PhD-Research Fellow, Department of Special Needs Education University of Oslo P.O.Box 1140 Blindern NO-0318 OSLO,Norway Phone: +47 22 85 81 38 Fax: +47 22 85 80 21 E-mail: katarina.rodina@isp.uio.noHead of Russo-Norwegian Academic Cooperation, Herzen State Pedagogical University St.Petersburg, Russia E-mail: ro-dina@mail.ru tlf: +47 41 108 408 http://www.herzen.spb.ru
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