Nothing sceptical, Martin. There are many imponderables here from many
sources. Trying to think with you.
I would be greatly assisted, and I assume I am not alone in this, if
discussants would provide page numbers and
references so that those not "in the know" could pin down sources and thus
better triangulate on what the focus
of discussion is.
I am not versed in Spinoza. I am barely versed in parts of Vygotsky. So when
arcaine references and partial information
are floated out on xmca as if everyone were an insider, when we are all
border liners, it confuses me.
mike
On 12/2/06, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> Mike, this sounds to me like a skeptical Hmmmm. What strikes you as
> dubious?
> I'm happy to be mediated.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> On 12/2/06 6:03 PM, "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm indeed.
> mike
>
>
>
> On 12/2/06, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Natalia, thanks very much. The cyrillic didn't come through, but I can
> >
> > piece
> > together the English:
> >
> > "after all a cornerstone of materialism is a
> > proposition about (that)
> > consciousness and the brain are, both, a product
> > (of nature), (and) a part
> > of nature, (the one) that reflects the rest of
> > nature"
> >
> > Might you be able to take a look at the other two excerpts in the
> > original
> > Russian?
> >
> > Let me think about this 'out loud' a little. This is
> > the point in Crisis
> > where Vygotsky is specifying what a truly Marxist
> > psychology, a 'general'
> > psychology, must study. A science, he insists,
> > studies not appearances but
> > what really exists. Optics, for example, studies
> > mirror surfaces and light
> > rays, not the images we see in the mirror, for the
> > latter are phantoms. A
> > scientific psychology must study the real processes
> > that can give rise to
> > such appearances, not (just) the appearances. [It's
> > not clear to me how
> > far
> > to go with this seeming analogy between the way a
> > mirror reflects and the
> > way the brain/Cs 'reflects the rest of nature'.] So
> > any descriptive,
> > intuitionist phenomenology must be rejected. What really
> > exists? A
> > materialist maintains that the brain exists, and consciousness
> > too. V
> > cites
> > Lenin to the effect that what is matter, what is objective,
> > is what exists
> > independently of human consciousness. And, seemingly
> > paradoxically,
> > consciousness can exist outside our consciousness: for we can
> > be conscious
> > without being self-conscious. I can see without knowing that I
> > see. So a
> > general psychology must study consciousness, but to know the mind
> > we can't
> > rely on introspection, in part because in introspection mind splits
> > into
> > subject and object: a dualism arises in the act of self-reflection.
> > We
> > can't
> > establish a psychological science only on the basis of what we
> > experience
> > directly (as Husserl tried to do); it must be based on knowledge,
> > which is
> > the result of analysis, not merely of experience. And what is
> > analysis?
> > Complicated answer put briefly: analysis lies at the intersection
> > of
> > methodology and practice: it is the exhaustive study of a single case
> > in
> > all
> > its connections, taken as a social microcosm. It involves what
> > Marx
> > (following Hegel) called abstraction.
> >
> > I'll confess I'm still not
> > clear what V is proposing as the solutions to
> > the
> > epistemological and
> > ontological problems that he has distinguished. It
> > looks
> > to me as though
> > he is saying that the epistemological problem - that
> > concerning the relation
> > between subject and object - arises only when one
> > accepts uncritically the
> > dualism that arises in introspection (or 'blind
> > empiricism'?). So once one
> > rejects introspection this problem dissolves.
> > The
> > implication is that if
> > one begins not with introspection but with
> > practice,
> > one avoids any
> > subject-object dualism. The ontological problem -
> > concerning
> > the relation
> > between mind and matter - is what he's trying to study, no?
> > How
> > is a
> > brain-in-a-body-in-a-social-world the basis for consciousness, then
> >
> > self-consciousness, then self-mastery and knowledge?
> >
> > Hmmm
> >
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > I found it --- in Russian, vol.1 of "Sobranie Sochinenii", on
> > page 416.
> > > It reads in Russian as very similar to the English quote your
> > posted
> > above:
> > >
> > > "Âåäü -- after all-- ê›àåóãîëüíûì êàìíåì ìàòå›èàëèçìà
> > -- a corneestone
> > of
> > > materialism -- ÿâëÿåòñÿ ïîëîæåíèå î òîì, -- is a
> > proposition about, ---
> > ÷òî
> > > ñîçíàíèå è ìîçã åñòü ï›îäóêò --- (that)
> > consciousness and the brain are,
> > > both, a product (of nature),--- ÷àñòü
> > ï›è›îäû, ---(and) a part of
> > nature, --
> > > îò›àæàflùàflöàÿ îñòàëüíófl ï›è›îäó
> > -- (the one) that reflects the rest of
> > > nature"
> > >
> > > Or something like
> > this.
> > >
> > > Hope this is helpful, and not making things more confusing.
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Natalia.
> >
> >
> > On 11/30/06 2:47 PM, "Natalia Gajdamaschko"
> > <nataliag@sfu.ca> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 08:55:29 -0500
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu wrote:
> > >>
> > >> A few pages later:
> > >>
> > >> ""After all,
> > a cornerstone of materialism is the proposition that
> > >> consciousness and
> > the brain are a product, a part of nature, which
> > reflect
> > >> the rest of
> > nature" (327).
> > >>
> > >> The last sentence is not grammatical English, so
> > something has clearly
> > > gone
> > >> wrong with the translation.
> > >>
> > >> If
> > anyone has access to the original Russian and could comment,that
> > >> would
> > be
> > >> great. (Page numbers are from the version in The Essential
> > Vygotsky.)
> > >>
> > >> Martin
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> >
> >
> >
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>
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