Mike, Tony and all,
I guess we need to enter an experiment! Tony refers to the last year's
discussion that was following a real live course, if I am not wrong. The
platform (technically speaking) was not the most comfortable for
everyone at all times. I don't know of a platform which would be good
for everyone. A wiki seems to be good -- for those who know how to use
it, but it require a small training for those who don't know how to use
it. Although I did not find it hard, It still may present some
obstacles. I am trying to work on two projects through a wiki -- as a
means of remote integration of ides and a depository of common
materials. So far, I am the only one who "dares" to use it for editing.
The collaborators seem to be eager "readers".
On the silence:
It would be nice if all the people who read this NOW, sent just a nod, a
"M-hm!" a kind of acknowledgment that they hear. That would mimic a
face-to-face conversation, in which a speaker may be encouraged or
discouraged to take up a course of thought depending on the nods, looks
and other manifestations of dialogicity. We do not have to say anything
specific to be a part of a conversation. Saying something specific may
be in many cases difficult because of the language barrier (really not
to be underestimated!!), but in other cases the difficulty is also a
product of the medium: writing rather than speaking. e-mail is somewhere
in between, yet, still a writing rather than sounding.
Finally, I am really interested to know more about the writings of
Bronckart, Clot, Dolz and others mentioned by Fernanda Liberali. And how
do they relate to Vygotsky, Holliday, Hasan and other theories of
"langagière, textes et discours".
Ana
Mike Cole wrote:
> Tony and Ana-- What this situation calls for is collective will! There
> are
> many
> ways. I would hesitate to go to a wiki platform having watched many
> colleagues
> crash there, what the heck, if someone (Tony?) sets it up for us and
> people
> find it
> useful, fine.
>
> Translate every message? XMCA has babblefish on it and there may well be
> better
> programs. Any got grad students who need to know a second language?
> (Oooops,
> I mean, "for whom demonstrating knowledge a second language is
> required for
> getting a phd"?) I had to learn two, but zero appears the current norm.
>
> If you merely glance at the world map at the lchc or xmca home pages
> all lit
> up with
> people logging in from all over the world it is clear that knowledge
> needed
> resides
> in this community-of-(mal?)practice. But if you read what people from all
> those
> place write, silence will serve us just fine.
>
> Whither, with a whisper, do we goeth?
> :-)
> mike
>
> On 8/27/06, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Ana,
>> Your points are both profound and practical.
>> Everybody,
>> I think this calls for a wiki platform, where each language
>> version of
>> any text can be continually improved and discussed by a number of
>> participlants. In some cases, a participant will make revisions that are
>> simply an improvement on the translation. In other cases alternatives
>> can
>> be put forward that raise questions about different ways of
>> understanding
>> the substance. All past versions are always available, and there can
>> be a
>> discussion page linked to the document page for discussing
>> substantive as
>> well as linguistic issues.
>> There are lots of software platforms that could handle such a wiki. I
>> think there was a discussion last year, however, on several interesting
>> texts that I never was able to get in on. I think Mike sent me a
>> password
>> but it didn't work, and a few times I went on unendingly circular quests
>> in which at some point or another the machine in San Diego told me where
>> to click to get a password, but when I clicked it asked me for my
>> password.
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Ana Marjanovic-Shane wrote:
>>
>> > Mike,
>> > I think you have a great point here, being one of those whose native
>> language
>> > is other than English. At the moment I am struggling with a review
>> of an
>> > article for a journal. The article was written in Portuguese and
>> translated
>> > into English -- the translation is BAD. But I am not sure, as I am
>> reading it
>> > if I do not understand what the author wants to convey because the
>> > translation is bad, because the author's ideas are not clear or
>> because
>> what
>> > the author wants to say can ONLY be said in Portuguese -- i.e. how
>> much
>> of
>> > the cultural context I am missing? Are some of the concepts s/he uses
>> > completely non-transparent for me the consequence of the missing
>> cultural
>> > context?
>> > And that is precisely the fear of a non-native speaker: "Am I going to
>> be so
>> > misunderstood, that my thoughts in another language seem stupid?"
>> > On the other hand -- having two or more languages at a disposal,
>> making
>> an
>> > effort to understand them and to express oneself in the others --
>> makes
>> for a
>> > great intellectual grindstone. One has to bear with the process though
>> -- it
>> > is slower, but probably yields a better result at the end.
>> >
>> > I am all for your idea to get some of these texts in the original
>> French, and
>> > then to have them roughly translated (by a computer) into English, and
>> then
>> > to start a discussion using all the relevant languages. However -- we
>> would
>> > all need to have a two way or three way translation of the discussion
>> texts
>> > too! In order to construct something like that together -- a
>> multilingual
>> > discussion with a construction of new concepts or at least with mutual
>> > understanding of the concepts -- we need someone to quickly translate
>> every
>> > posting (or at a request) into English/Spanish/French (and maybe more
>> > languages...) Does it seem like very difficult?? Probably. But
>> maybe we
>> can
>> > have a very small beginning if someone volunteers to do
>> translations of
>> the
>> > discussion as it is unfolding.
>> >
>> > (Sending this again with a fear that I sound too non-English to you)
>> > Ana
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike Cole wrote:
>> >> Thanks very much, Fernanda.
>> >> Your selections raise an interesting issue about language, e.g., the
>> >> general
>> >> ignorance of languages other than English among
>> >> American academics.
>> >>
>> >> I raised this issue with my colleagues in Chile last December and I
>> >> thought
>> >> that we had an agreement for them to select a text
>> >> that was in both Spanish and English and that they would be
>> discussion
>> >> leaders, writing in the language they felt most comfortable
>> >> using, e.g. Spanish. This seemed important to me because in general I
>> >> think
>> >> that members of XMCA underestimate the communicative
>> >> handcap of our members living in non-English speaking countries...
>> Often
>> >> such people can read English well but have difficulty
>> >> writing it, and they feel that their ideas will not be valued
>> owing to
>> the
>> >> inelegance of their English. So, putting the shoe on the
>> >> other foot (so to speak) seemed like it would be useful.
>> >>
>> >> Using myself as a yardstick (old and unreliable!) my ability to read
>> >> French
>> >> is not good, having been displaced by Russian, and
>> >> my ability to read spanish is little better, having been acquired
>> only
>> >> informally. But it may well be that we have enough French
>> >> readers who can write English to lend a hand, or that (for
>> example) we
>> >> could
>> >> get a couple of the papers (not whole books!)
>> >> translated so that those who would be totally left out could at least
>> read
>> >> and struggle with notes about the texts in French.
>> >>
>> >> Another possibility would be to run an entire text through a computer
>> >> translation. This will produce a semi-interpretable text but
>> >> if the topic is familiar (e.g., Vygotsky, Bakhtin) readers like me
>> might
>> >> recover a lot of French and be able to participate while
>> >> we had a strong French voice guiding the discussion.
>> >>
>> >> There are other variations. We could simply retreat from the issue
>> and
>> >> read
>> >> the one article, by Clot, that is in English.
>> >> Lets see what others think. I prefer the bilingual approach
>> personally,
>> >> but
>> >> if it is only a stunt, there is probably no point
>> >> to it.
>> >>
>> >> A bientot!
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Here are some of them. I marked the ones I prefer. I am very
>> interested
>> >>> in the role of argumentation as an instrument. Because I am an
>> applied
>> >>> linguist, this is a big issue, mainly, if one considers Benveniste's
>> >>> concern against the role of language as an instrument.
>> >>> Fernanda
>> >>> *List*
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.P. 1993. *Action Theory and the analysis of action in
>> >>> education.* Paper presented at the 5th European Association for
>> Research
>> >>> on Learning and Instruction.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (1997). *Activité langagière, textes et discours.
>> Pour
>> >>> un
>> >>> interactionisme socio-discursif*. Paris : Delachaux & Niestlé.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002a). La explicación en psicología ante el
>> desafío
>> >>> del
>> >>> significado. *Estudios de Psicología, 23 (3)*, 387-416.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002b). La culture, sémantique du social
>> formatrice
>> de
>> >>> la personne. In F. Rastier & S. Bouquet (Ed.), *Une introduction aux
>> >>> sciences de la culture* (pp. 175-201). Paris : P.U.F.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2004). Pourquoi et comment analyser l'agir
>> verbal et
>> >>> non
>> >>> verbal en situation de travail ? In : J.-P. Bronckart & Groupe LAF
>> >>> (Ed.),
>> >>> *L'analyse de l'agir et des discours dans trois situations de
>> travail*.
>> >>> Cahiers de la Section des Sciences de l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. & Groupe LAF (2004). *L'analyse de l'agir et des
>> >>> discours
>> >>> dans trois situations de travail*. Cahiers de la Section des
>> Sciences
>> de
>> >>> l'Education, xxxxxxxxxxxx.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2002). La conscience comme " analyseur " des
>> >>> épistémologies de Vygotski et Piaget. In Y. Clot (Dir.) *Avec
>> Vygotski*,
>> >>> 17-43.
>> >>>
>> >>> Bronckart, J.-P. (2001). S'entendre pour agir et agir pour
>> s'entendre.
>> >>> In
>> >>> J. M. Baudouin & J. Friedrich (Eds), *Théories de l'action et
>> >>> éducation*,
>> >>> 133-154. Bruxelles : De Boeck Université.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clot, Y. (1999 a). I. Oddone, les instruments de l'action.
>> *Territoires
>> >>> du
>> >>> travail*, *3*, 12-25.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clot, Y. (2002). De Vygotski à Léontiev via Bakhtine. In Y. Clot
>> (Dir.)
>> >>> *Avec
>> >>> Vygotski*, 165-185, Paris : la Dispute. 2ème édition.
>> >>>
>> >>> Clot, Y. & Faïta, D. (2000). Genres et styles en analyse du
>> travail.
>> >>> Concepts
>> >>> et méthodes. *Travailler*, *4*, 7-42
>> >>>
>> >>> Dolz, J. (1995) Escribir textos argumentativos para mejorar su
>> >>> comprensión. *Aprendizaje - Separata*. pp. 65-77.
>> >>>
>> >>> _______ (1996) Learning argumentative capacities: a study of the
>> effects
>> >>> of a systematic and intensive teaching of argumentative discourse in
>> >>> 11-12
>> >>> year old children. *Argumentation*, n.º 10. pp. 227-251.
>> >>>
>> >>> Dolz, J; Rey, N. & Surian, M (2004) Le débat: un dialogue avec la
>> pensée
>> >>> de l'autre. *Le français *aujourd'hui, n.º 146. pp. 5-15.
>> >>>
>> >>> Faïta, D. (1989). Mondes du travail et pratiques langagières.
>> >>> *Langages*,
>> >>> *93, 3*, 110-124
>> >>>
>> >>> Schneuwly, B. (1994). Genres et types de discours : considérations
>> >>> psychologiques et ontogénétiques. In Y. Reuter (Dir.) *Les
>> interactions
>> >>> lecture-écriture,*155-173. Berne : Peter Lang.
>> >>>
>> >>> Schneuwly, B. (2002). Le développement du concept de développement
>> chez
>> >>> Vygotski. In Y. Clot (Dir.)* Avec Vygotski, *267-280. Paris : La
>> >>> Dispute.
>> >>> 2ème édition.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> *From:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >>> *To:* Fernanda Liberali <liberali@uol.com.br>
>> >>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:06 PM
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>> >>>
>> >>> Fernanda-- Send a list of article you think would be helpful and we
>> can
>> >>> scan them
>> >>> for discussion.
>> >>> mike
>> >>>
>> >>> On 8/27/06, Fernanda Liberali < liberali@uol.com.br> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Dear friends,
>> >>> > Although I do not contribute to the list as I would love to, I
>> would
>> >>> > like to
>> >>> > suggest that the members could add some of the Swiss writers
>> with a
>> >>> > Vygotskian and Bakhtinian backgroud to the list. I believe they
>> could
>> >>> > also
>> >>> > contribute a lot to the discussion. In my opinion, we could try to
>> add
>> >>> > some
>> >>> > of the discussion on the role, use and description of language
>> >>> > developed by
>> >>> > Bronckart, Schneuwely and Dolz, to mention some. I really believe
>> that
>> >>> > would
>> >>> > be a wonderful opportunity to expand the discussion developed last
>> >>> year
>> >>> > with
>> >>> > the ideas developed by Hasan, Daniels and Wells. I did it with my
>> >>> group
>> >>> > here
>> >>> > in Brazil and I think it was a very nice opportunity for us to
>> review
>> >>> > our
>> >>> > way of understanding language, activity, consciousness, sign and
>> >>> tool.
>> >>> > Unfortunately, we do not have the same amount of time to use the
>> list
>> >>> to
>> >>> > discuss as we would love to, but, hopefully, we will be able to
>> make
>> >>> > some
>> >>> > comments on the topic.
>> >>> > Best regards,
>> >>> > Fernanda Liberali
>> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> > From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >>> > To: "Phil Chappell" <philchappell@mac.com >
>> >>> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>> > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:42 PM
>> >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Beyond Alterity/Intersubjectivity
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >I am sure several people are interested, Phil. And we can easily
>> and
>> >>> > > fruitfully
>> >>> > > take this up in a lab meeting or two. But as always, we
>> benefit if
>> >>> > there
>> >>> > > is
>> >>> > > a
>> >>> > > (are some) discussion leader(s). I will be away second week of
>> Sept
>> >>> > and
>> >>> > > pretty
>> >>> > > tied up into October, so why not see who can play discussion
>> >>> > facilitator?
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > One idea that immediately occurs to me is that it would be
>> helpful
>> >>> to
>> >>> > have
>> >>> > > the early discussion
>> >>> > > in which Hasan, Daniels, and others participated cut and paste
>> >>> > together as
>> >>> > > a
>> >>> > > single file. We could
>> >>> > > also create a single space on xmca where the papers and
>> ancillary
>> >>> > > materials
>> >>> > > for discussion
>> >>> > > were brought together in one place for people who experience
>> >>> > navigating
>> >>> > > LCHC/XMCA>
>> >>> > > mike
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > On 8/27/06, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com > wrote:
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >> Thanks so much, Gordon for making your paper available. bb has
>> >>> > >> already suggested an approach to the two papers (yours and
>> >>> > >> Halliday's) and I guess we should wait for him to get back
>> online
>> >>> > >> before going any further.
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >> It looks like Gordon's two papers could be grouped and we
>> retain
>> >>> bb's
>> >>> > >> "dualing papers" strategy? Having Voloshinov/Bakhtin in the mix
>> >>> makes
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >> for an interesting time, especially in terms of talking about
>> sign
>> >>> > >> mediation.
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >> Anyone else interested?
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >> Phil
>> >>> > >> On 27/08/2006, at 12:49 AM, Mike Cole wrote:
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >> > More food for thought and perhaps for discussion? bb, phil,
>> >>> > >> > david.....??
>> >>> > >> > mike
>> >>> > >> >
>> >>> > >> > On 8/26/06, Gordon Wells < gwells@ucsc.edu> wrote:
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >> Phil and Others discussing LSV and MAKH,
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >> I have been too busy teaching to do more than lurk during
>> this
>> >>> > >> >> discussion. However, since you and Bill have referred to my
>> >>> paper
>> >>> > in
>> >>> > >> >> Linguistics and Education, I am taking the liberty of
>> attaching
>> >>> a
>> >>> > >> >> paper I recently finished which has advanced my own thinking
>> on
>> >>> > this
>> >>> > >> >> and related topics. It is currently under review.
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >> Gordon
>> >>> > >> >> --
>> >>> > >> >> Gordon Wells
>> >>> > >> >> Dept of Education,
>> >>> > http://education.ucsc.edu/faculty/
>> >>> > >> >> gwells
>> >>> > >> >> UC Santa Cruz.
>> >>> > >> >> gwells@ucsc.edu
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>> > >> >> xmca mailing list
>> >>> > >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>> > >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> >>
>> >>> > >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > >> > xmca mailing list
>> >>> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > >>
>> >>> > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > xmca mailing list
>> >>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>> > >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> xmca mailing list
>> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.
>> >
>> > 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
>> >
>> > Philadelphia, PA 19144
>> >
>> > Home office: (215) 843-2909
>> >
>> > Mobile: (267) 334-2905
>> >
>> > ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
>> >
>> > http://www.speakeasy.org/~anamshane <
>> http://www.speakeasy.org/%7Eanamshane>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>>
>> Tony Whitson
>> UD School of Education
>> NEWARK DE 19716
>>
>> twhitson@udel.edu
>> _______________________________
>>
>> "those who fail to reread
>> are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>> -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.151 W. Tulpehocken St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144
Home office: (215) 843-2909
Mobile: (267) 334-2905
ana@zmajcenter.org <mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org>
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