Re: [xmca] sense/meaning and the translation of myishlenie i rech

From: Mike Cole (
Date: Thu Jul 28 2005 - 16:54:24 PDT

Yes, of course, Anna. Thinking implies a more dynamic process than thought,
sense a more dynamic process than meaning, but
isnt the idea that one is, in fact, more stable than the other? (In several
sense, including temporally)? Hard to keep thinking of
culture as a process, yet we know it is. And in the right circumstances we
might be able to turn it into a verb (can't think of one offhand).
Anyway, I was caught by the combination of though and speech in an xmca note
precisely because it resonated for me with
the sense/meaning discussion.

 On 7/28/05, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <> wrote:
> Mike and all,
> You have a point here. The closest translation of "Myshlenie I Rech", I
> think should be "Thinking and Speech". -- both imply dynamic processes more
> than stable structures.
> Ana
> Mike Cole wrote:
> Someone-- Michael?- Brought to mind the implications of different
> translations of LSV's Thought and Language (1934/1962/1986) such that in
> English in 1987
> it became Thinking and Speech and yet he translates it as Thought and
> speech.
> So interesting!
> As explained somewhere (the intro?) Norris Minnick (and Jim Wertsch, I
> think) argued that the title should be thinking and speech. After all, the
> usual word
> for language is yazik (tounge, also). And rech is a direct translation of
> speech. He gave up and gave a speech (rech). Language won't substitute.
> But what about Myishlenie? The verb form is Myshlit. Its a noun. So, how
> did it get to be a verb in English in 1987?
> We have an ambiguity in english when nouns and verbs trade places, and
> thinking/thought appears one of those places. "Tell me your thinking on this
> project" " Or, "Give some thoughts
> about this project" substitute pretty easily, yet one is, so to speak, in
> motion, -ing'ing along, a process. The other is a product, at least
> temporarily fixed. Thought and Speech works pretty good
> me, being an English speaker.
> Michael-- Is there variation in the translation into German?
> Not unlike the way the discussion of word and sense appears to be thought
> of by some of us.
> mike
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