Dear Ana and everybody-
I read/reread both articles and found that I agree with much of Margaret
Gredler and Carol Shields' criticism of Michael Glassman. Here are points of
my agreement with Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields (just from their first
page):
1. Michael Glassman wrote, "Dewey would applaud Vygotsky's emphasis on
everyday culture
as the lynchpin of the educational process." (p.4)
Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields disagreed, "... contrary to Glassman's
(2001, p. 3) statements, Vygotsky did not advocate bringing everyday
activities into the classroom or the ways that human activity serves as an
impetus to learning." (p.21)
I agree with Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields. Unlike Dewey, Vygotsky was
rather critical about everyday culture/activities/concepts. I do not know
any place in his writings where Vygotsky argued that "everyday culture" (I'm
not sure I know what Michael Glassman meant by this term - I never read
about it before, not in Vygotsky definitely) is the lynchpin of the
educational process. Did I miss something in Vygotsky?
2. Michael Glassman wrote, "Vygotsky suggests that it is the ability to
develop cooperative activity through complex social relationships that
separates mature humans from all other animals (Vygotsky & Luria, 1993)."
(p.5)
Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields disagreed, "... neither Vygotsky and
Luria (1930/1993) nor Vygotsky's other writings state that cooperative
activity separates humans from all other animals as Glassman (2001, p. 5)
asserts. Instead, "the absence of at least the beginnings of speech . . .
the lack of ability to make a sign or to introduce some auxiliary
psychological means [in problem solving] . . . draws the line between the
ape and the most primitive human being" (Vygotsky & Luria, 1930/1993, p.
73). In another work, Vygotsky (1931/1997f) identifies "signification, that
is, the creation and use of signs" as the unique human behavior that
differentiates humans from animals (p. 55)." (p. 21)
Further in his article, Michael Glassman talked about "tools and symbols" as
being very important for Vygotsky but I agree with Margaret Gredler and
Carol Shields that Michael Glassman's writing is very confusing and even
misleading at times on this issue.
3. Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields wrote, "In addition, Glassman's (2001)
assertions that Vygotsky considered tools as "the means for specific,
culturally approved consequences" (p. 5), believing that "tools and symbols
are used in the service of culturally defined goals" (p. 6),3 and "free
inquiry is . . . eclipsed by culturally significant and appropriate inquiry"
(p. 6) are inaccurate. Vygotsky did not discuss inquiry, and he described
psychological tools as "the means of which we direct and realize the
psychological operations (e.g., memorizing, comparing, selecting) necessary
for the solution of the problem" (Vygotsky, 1997i, p. 86)." (p. 21)
Again, in my view, Margaret and Carol are right.
I can go on and on and on... Actually, I could not find place in Margaret
Gredler and Carol Shields' critique of Michael Glassman that I did not
agree... Did you? Did I miss something?
I did not find Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields' tone angry or aggressive
or negative. They disagreed with Michael Glassman about almost everything (I
actually can add more disagreements with Michael). So what? I did not find
anything disrespectful in their tone. Did I miss something in their tone? (I
like to disagree with people, maybe this is why I do not see anything
offensive in their critical article). Does disagreement mean "negative"? For
me, "negative" means not constructive but I found Margaret Gredler and Carol
Shields being very constructive. I feel that Margaret Gredler and Carol
Shields are respectful to all community, including Michael Glassman, by
bringing supports for their claims and grounding their claims in Michael's
text. What else are they supposed to write? In this message, for example, I
disagree with Ana, but I do not feel to be negative to her, angry with her,
or aggressive to her. I love Ana and respect her a lot and I'd love to hear
what she and the others may say in response even if she and the other people
completely disagree with me. I know that I can be wrong, she can we wrong,
we both can wrong, and so on... But, we work together. I think that Michael
made an interesting attempt to bring Vygotsky and Dewey together. He made
his shot but Margaret and Carol (and I) rejected it by providing their
critique. He may choose to rebuff us and show us wrong - I do not know as
Margaret and Carol, but I'll be happy to admit that I'm wrong if Michael
brings his convincing counter-arguments. It is not necessarily pleasant to
read a critical review, in which the authors completely disagree with you.
But, hey, this is part of our profession: other colleagues can judge our
work as completely right, partially right, or completely wrong. If it is the
latter, although it is unpleasant, I do not find anything negative, angry,
or aggressive in it per se. Again, I may miss something and I'd like what
other people see that makes Margaret Gredler and Carol Shields' (and maybe
even my?) tone objectable.
What do you think?
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ana@zmajcenter.org [mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org]
> Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 8:43 AM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
>
> Dear Eugene,
> I absolutely agree with you. It is dangerous to make conclusions based on
little evidence
> and several quotes. I am not sure what was Glassman's point, but to me it
did not seem
> contradictory to Luria and Vygotsky's research in the the ways that a
cultural historical
> change produce changes in psychological processes. The "golden
opportunity" to study
> these processes in a "natural experiment" was, at the same time, enabled
in part by the
> Stalinist politics of forcefull collectivisation terror. Does that mean
that you can
> automatically align the researchers with the Stalinist political agenda?
No.
>
> However, I was reactineg more to the tone of their debate than to the fine
points they were
> making. On the whole, they did not like Glassman's hypothesis that
Vygotsky's ideas can be
> related to Dewey's in the way that Glassman did. And they criticised
different aspects of
> that comparison in Glassman's work in very forceful language.
>
> Ana
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eugene Matusov [mailto:ematusov@udel.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 06:06 AM
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> >
> > Dear Ana-
> >
> > I did not have time to read Gredler and Shields' article (I'm still in
San
> > Diego) but the quotes that you nicely put together make me agree with
the
> > authors. It seems to me (and I can be wrong) that one of the issues is a
> > POLITICAL Soviet context. The rhetoric about "upbringing the New Soviet
> > person" (ridiculed later by dissidents as "homo Soveticus") was used in
the
> > early 1930s by Stalinist propaganda. It seems to me that Glassman
> > dangerously aligned Vygotsky and Luria with the Stalinist propaganda
> > machine. I'm personally much more comfortable with Gredler and Shields'
> > formulation (as presented in your quote) than with Glassman's one.
Although
> > it is well-documented (see Rogoff, 1990) that Luria overlooked the
political
> > context of his Uzbekistan experiments (i.e., Stalinist collectivization
> > terror), there is no evidence that Vygotsky and Luria accepted the
Stalinist
> > call for "upbringing the New Soviet person" as Glassman seems to
suggest.
> > Knowing Soviet history, Glassman's statements cited below about Vygotsky
and
> > Luria make me VERY uncomfortable. In contrast, I'm very comfortable with
> > Gredler and Shields' statement that
> > > Particularly important is that the study was a golden opportunity
> > > to test the long-standing and widespread debate among
> > > ethnopsychologists, sociologists, and others as to whether categories
> > > of thinking are universal (the Gestalt view) or whether
> > > primitive and advanced technological cultures produced different
> > > levels of intellectual development (see Luria, 1979; van
> > > der Veer & Valsiner, 1991).
> >
> > Sorry if my comments do not make sense because I did not read the
articles
> > but react only to the short quotes.
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Eugene
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Ana [mailto:ana@zmajcenter.org]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:54 PM
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: Does no one read [between] Vygotsky's words?
> > >
> > > Peter, Bill
> > >
> > > I went and read the article. One thing is that it is definitively
writen
> > > in a very negative tone, almost angry and very agressive.
> > > The other thing is that they give a lot of referrences one would have
to
> > > check in order to figure out if they have a point they claim to have.
> > > However, in one instance at least, I could see that they don't seem to
> > > understand exactly what they are criticizing. This is the case of the
> > > famous Luria/Vygtsky research on changes introduced by soviet literacy
> > > programs. Here is a quote from their article
> > >
> > > ****
> > > Glassman (2001, p. 6) cites Vygotsky and Luria (1930/1993) as
> > > the source for his statements that (a) Vygotsky would agree with
> > > Dewey that society has "a vested interest in the development and
> > > maintenance of these [psychological] tools" and (b) Vygotsky
> > > wanted "to use the educational process to teach new members
> > > of the social community how to 'use' important, culturally developed
> > > tools in an effective manner (a top-down/determinate
> > > approach)." In contrast, Vygotsky and Luria (1930/1993) neither
> > > stated nor alluded to such an agenda. The text, which addresses
> > > cognitive development, discusses important landmarks
> > > in the three different paths that account for human behavior-
> > > evolutionary (phylogenetic), historical, and ontogenetic (p. 36).
> > > For example, numeric operations and other early psychological
> > > tools transformed the memory and thinking of primitive peoples.
> > > Also discussed were the authors' experiments on the development
> > > of children's cognitive processes and the cognitive development
> > > of mentally retarded, physically impaired, and gifted
> > > children.
> > > Glassman (2001) then states that the cross-cultural research of
> > > Luria and Vygotsky "hypothesized that the introduction of new
> > > tools by a strong social organization (i.e., the Soviet Union)
> > > would lead to the development of a 'new' type of citizen" (p. 6).
> > > Instead, the hypothesis the researchers actually tested was that
> > > "the structure of psychological processes changes as a function of
> > > history; consciousness does not have a constant, unchanging
> > > structure" [italics added] (Luria, 1971, p. 160). More specifi-
> > > cally, Luria (1976) clearly stated,
> > > We hypothesized that people with a primarily graphic/functional
> > > reflection of reality would show a different mental process from
> > > people with a system of predominantly abstract, verbal, and logical
> > > approach to reality. (p. 18)
> > > Particularly important is that the study was a golden opportunity
> > > to test the long-standing and widespread debate among
> > > ethnopsychologists, sociologists, and others as to whether categories
> > > of thinking are universal (the Gestalt view) or whether
> > > primitive and advanced technological cultures produced different
> > > levels of intellectual development (see Luria, 1979; van
> > > der Veer & Valsiner, 1991).5 Conducted in the remote parts of
> > > the Soviet Union (villages in Uzbekistan and Kirghizia) that
> > > were undergoing rapid socioeconomic change, the study included
> > > two isolated and illiterate groups and three groups with
> > > varying literacy levels and some exposure to technological
> > > change. The 600 interview protocols (van der Veer & Valsiner,
> > > 1991, p. 248) indicated that practical activity and concrete
situations
> > > dominated the perception, classification, and reasoning
> > > skills of the nonliterate subjects whereas the others engaged
> > > in categorical, abstract thinking (Luria, 1976, pp. 117-134;
> > > ***
> > > It seems to me that what they criticize is something that is not at
all
> > > opposed to what they say "researchers actually tested [...]". And,
that
> > > was their hypothesis that:
> > > "the structure of psychological processes changes as a function of
> > > history; consciousness does not have a constant, unchanging
> > > structure" .
> > >
> > > Either they don't understand that the Soviet Imposed literacy program
is
> > > at the same time a historical, social process" or I don't know what
they
> > > want to say.
> > >
> > > That is my first impression. No doubt that the article was written in
a
> > > hostile tone, and I am surprised that it was published as such in the
> > > educatinal researcher. Good game is a game where we all build upon
each
> > > other's thinking and research instead of bashing each other. If they
had
> > > very important fine points about the differences between Dewey and
> > > Vygotsky, why not just point that out in a friendly manner??
> > >
> > > And of course, I agree with Bill: No one's thinking ought to become a
> > > dogma - Einsten's, Vygotsky's or anyone elses. The point is to keep
> > > moving ahead.
> > >
> > > Ana
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill Barowy wrote:
> > >
> > > >Wow. Thanks Peter for provoking my interest in this article. I had
> > noted it
> > > >when it arrived, but I'll make sure to read it asap.
> > > >
> > > >I have to say that i am uncomfortable with the kind of thinking and
> > writing
> > > >that you described. For example, while Vygotsky could be held as the
> > kind of
> > > >genius Einstein was, one does not find folks saying so much they know
> > what
> > > >Einstein "said and believed" to the condescension of others. Quite
to
> > the
> > > >contrary, it is expected to go beyond Einstein in our understanding
-- he
> > may
> > > >have been a genius, but he was still only a human. And there are now
> > better
> > > >reformulations of Einstein's core ideas than what Einstein developed.
We
> > can
> > > >and do still admire Einstein for his contributions.
> > > >
> > > >But so, is this kind of publication the result of making Vygotsky
into
> > such an
> > > >untouchable icon? Are we suffering the slings and arrows of a
> > codeveloping
> > > >hegemonic discourse that attribute legitimacy more to replicating
exactly
> > an
> > > >individual's ideas than to the problems and the work? If so, it is
such
> > a
> > > >strange and ironic twist for activity theory research.
> > > >
> > > >bb
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat May 01 2004 - 01:00:07 PDT