RE: real and virtual worlds

From: David H Kirshner (dkirsh@lsu.edu)
Date: Mon Jan 05 2004 - 08:11:45 PST


Eugene said:
I (and all my family) want to use participant observation to study
longitudinally (!) upper class. I hope that I can get a grant for that from
ultra rich people.

Eugene, that would be great, but, you know, you'd have to get a hair cut.
David

                                                                                                           
                      "Eugene Matusov"
                      <ematusov who-is-at udel.ed To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
                      u> cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
                                               Subject: RE: real and virtual worlds
                      01/04/2004 06:00
                      PM
                      Please respond to
                      xmca
                                                                                                           
                                                                                                           

Dear David-

David, you are stealing my idea :-)
>I was thinking the
> other day how helpful it would be for some socially progressive think
tank
> to sponsor an ethnographic, participant/observer study of upper class
> attitudes toward class--slipping into private power clubs and engaging in
> leisurely but intense conversations about the structure of society.

I (and all my family) want to use participant observation to study
longitudinally (!) upper class. I hope that I can get a grant for that from
ultra rich people.

Eugene

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David H Kirshner [mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 1:05 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: real and virtual worlds
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Great idea, Eugene. We, in the US, struggle with a public discourse that
> adamantly refuses to recognize its class-riven nature. I was thinking the
> other day how helpful it would be for some socially progressive think
tank
> to sponsor an ethnographic, participant/observer study of upper class
> attitudes toward class--slipping into private power clubs and engaging in
> leisurely but intense conversations about the structure of society.
> David
> PS. Thanks to Victor, Andy, Ricardo, and Eugene for reflections my
> postmodernist/poststructuralist thread.
>
>
>
>
> Victor, Andy, and Ricardo
>
>
>
>
> "Eugene Matusov"
> <ematusov who-is-at udel.ed To:
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> u> cc: (bcc: David H
Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
> Subject: RE: real and
virtual worlds
> 12/30/2003 07:26
> PM
> Please respond to
> xmca
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Andy-
>
> It will be interesting to check/test your (and Victor's?) hypothesis
about
> "*all* member of bourgeois society. sharing. the same illusions". I
> personally doubt that members of upper class ("old moneys") would agree
> with "I believe if you put an effort into anything, you can get ahead."
> (Strauss, 1992, p. 202) But it will be nice to check that. I wish
somebody
> made a study like Claudia Strauss did with members of working, middle,
and
> upper class people.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Eugene
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 7:39 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: real and virtual worlds
>
> Here we come back to what someone (Victor?) said about *all* members of
> bourgeois society, whatever class, sharing in the first place, the same
> illusions. Class consciousness and solidarity are attitudes I think which
> have to be learnt through definite kinds of experience; such experiences
> are not to be had in the home, generally are not conveyed in TV; perhaps
> the first experiences are in gang-like interactions at school?
>
> Andy
>
> At 07:23 PM 30/12/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
> Dear Andy, I think you are right on the target talking about, what Jim
Gee
> calls, projective identity. The question that I have is how and why
working
> class people participate in middle-class cultural model(or way of
talking).
>
>
>
>
> It is not the case that working class people accept any middle class
> cultural modelthat available via TV or other popular media. Although I do
> not have much data about that but I doubt that many working class people
> would buy middle class cultural model of child fostering based on
> constantly giving kids choices. So the question is why some working class
> people project themselves in self-actualizationmiddle-class cultural
model
> but not in child-rearing through choice-makingmiddle-class cultural
model.
> I do not think the preference of working class people in adapting
> middle-class models can be explained simply by watching TV. Any ideas?
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
>
> Eugene
>
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:38 PM
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: real and virtual worlds
>
>
>
> We could put this together with Jim Gee's observations about play. People
> are growing up acting out characters that they see on TV. They believe
that
> they can make their own character. But this turns out to be a frustrated
> experience; they only get to play Doug Heffernan. ... Andy
>
>
> Claudias study shows that also working class men widely hold this
> self-actualizationcultural model they do and cannot enact it (but rather
> they act out of necessity-based being a breadwinnercultural model).
Victor
> or anybody else, can you explain what makes proliferation of cultural
> modelsthat people deeply hold but cant enact, please?
> Eugene



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