I haven't finished reading through this thread, but I am sending this note
to acknowledge that it is a fabulous discussion. I also want to
congratulate Paul D. who has been trying to launch this conversation,
failing because of what has been seen (by some, me included) as offensive
rhetoric. The TONE of this discussion is inviting. I'm excited about
responding to the thread, once I get to the end of it....'
Judy
>>From: "Nate Schmolze" <nate_schmolze@yahoo.com>
>>To: <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>Subject: RE: Ideal - Ilyenkov
>>Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:16:24 -0500
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>>jan,
>>
>>While I agree with what you said about individual construction, I am still
>>left wondering if "ideal activity" or the ideal as material activity focuses
>>solely on its positive side. It seems to me there are ways of reasoning,
>>thinking, acting that we have access to because of previous and current
>>material activities that have a negative side.
>>
>>In regards to ideal activity I am still left with the feeling that there is
>>this "invisable hand" or "absolute spirit" guiding ideality. It seems to me
>>ideality emerges from social practice at a certain point in time and becomes
>>materialized in language, artifacts, buildings etc. That is how we have
>>access to it at another place and time.
>>
>>I guess what I am really wondering is if this takes us beyond Kantian
>>transcendentalism except for it being located in history rather than the
>>head, god or whatever. It seems one thing to argue that the ideal is of
>>importance in understanding consciousness, reasoning etc, but quite another
>>to give it solely a positive face.
>>
>>Nate
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jan derry [mailto:j_derry@hotmail.com]
>>Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 12:31 PM
>>To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>Subject: Re: Ideal - Ilyenkov
>>
>>
>>Nate, I realised that when I responded to Helen I pushed the reply button
>>and it went to Helen's own email and not XMCA so I have reposted what I
>>wrote here and because it relates to your concern over 'hierarchy' and
>>'western culture'.
>>
>>There are problems with what can be an isolated and localised
>>characterisation of (western) culture. (Is an Aristotelianism introduced to
>>western Europe in the twelfth century by a Syrian (Ibn Sina) and an Arab
>>(Ibn Rushd)'western culture'?)
>>
>>Helen, I agree with you that that Ilyenkov’s piece is inspiring in the way
>>that it makes us think about the problem of consciousness quite differently.
>>I think some of this he draws from Spinoza and like Vygotsky, conceives of
>>will in a quite different way to that of Descartes. I agree with you that as
>>a teacher, to be engaged in the development of intellect is a quite
>>different activity than to be testing ‘capacities’ and transmitting
>>information.
>>
>>I’m not sure that using the term language (as solving the problem of
>>consciousness) does justice to what Ilyenkov meant by the ideal as human
>>material activity. There is a danger both of understanding the realm in
>>which we act within - as open to conscious open-ended individual
>>construction and of misunderstanding that the ‘space of reasons’ (our
>>‘ideal’ activity laid down in the world over centuries) has a local and
>>ahistorical character (and thus can be modified at will. This would not be
>>the case even for a Cartesian will with it’s independence from the
>>material). The force of Ilyenkov’s point is that the historically developing
>>‘culture/social consciousness’ is what the individual must reckon with to be
>>more than an animal responding to ‘organic attractions and needs of the
>>individual body’(that is to be something more than a biochemical process –
>>an extension of an environment, and so to have consciousness). Jan
>>
>>Jan Derry
>>www.bham.ac.uk/SAT/Derry.html
>>
>>
>>
>
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