Paul,
First, I very much think class exists and it is very material. Second, for
me I don't see it simply as a struggle between the working class and the
capitalists, but also the middle class. If we are talking about terms like
Social Economic Status or "working class" (something that one is, not
something that one becomes) it is continually defined through middleclass
knowledges, beliefs, values etc through talk of what is normal, development
and the like. And as you point out this occurs because society (U.S.) is
assumed to be classless.
Maybe middleclass is not useful here, but to my way of thinking for a
system of capitalism to flourish it needs a middleclass and a working
class. In order to have a middle class one need a class to exploit and
therefore control through low wages and other means. The rise of
prosperity and our so called 0 unemployment has deep consequences in both
the states and "third world" countries. I don't see how putting the
contradiction -tension solely with the capitalists is useful.
I agree with you about class consciousness being developed by everyone. I
tend to see classes emerging with capitalism not their consciousness being
directly molded by capitalism or the capitalist. As Gordon mentioned with
language it gets a little more complicated although economics is never
absent. There is an interclass relationship that is always present from
models of development on one hand to the the middle class's fear of the
working class or poor that is seen in the whole crime issue. While I
suppose we can situate this somehow in a determining factor such as the
relationship of the working-class with the capitalist, their seems to a lot
of other factors involved.
I in no way want to negate a class analysis, but I do think it should be
more materially situated in their lives. The only one I see doing this at
the moment is Walkerdine.
Nate
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Dillon <dillonph who-is-at northcoast.com>
To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: question on class
> Nate,
>
> I'm really mystified by what you're saying. I don't get it. Who is
doing
> the subject of this "viewed as abnormal", that is "viewed abnormal by
whom"?
> Is this the "us" that Judy was referring to?? Is this an expression of
the
> American ideology that class doesn't exist or isn't important here?? If
> there's one occasion on which I'd start talking about false consciousness
> this might be it.
>
> And what is this "middle class" that people keep referring to? Is that
> defined in terms of income or is it some composite of various elements
into
> an SES. "Middle class" is clearly not part of the conceptual system in
> which class is defined in terms of the individuals relationship to the
> process of social production. If anything at all, "middle class" is an
> ideological notion toward which the dominant ideological forces (ranging
> from school history texts to World Series promos for major league
baseball)
> direct working Americans to aspire or in which, if they already think
> they're there, they are directed to be comfortable and not rock the boat.
> The aging middle class gives us such wonders as Proposition 13 in
> California, all live in varieties of San Fernando Valley, and like to
have
> two cars without regard for the environmental consequences (mommy drives
the
> station wagon). Excuse me but I'm feeling a wave of nausea about now.
>
> I'd really like to know what you are talking about. I think that some
form
> of class consciousness is necessarily internalized by everyone who lives
in
> a stratified society. Maybe the problem in the U.S. is the denial of
class
> as a fundamental component of the dominant ideologies and therefor if you
> bring it up you're thought to be aberrant. "Oh, Johnny has developed the
> very strange notion that he's a working class lad, quick send him to the
> shrink so he can be ADJUSTED, very well-ADJUSTED."
>
> The nausea is passing but only leaving behind a strange sense of
irreality,
> almost opium like. I think I'll take a walk and look at all of the
eroded
> barren hills bereft of old growth 1500 year old redwood that has gone to
> make those nice middle class sun decks.
>
> Paul H. Dillon
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nate <schmolze who-is-at students.wisc.edu>
> To: xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:47 PM
> Subject: Re: question on class
>
>
> >I was not referring to this in reference to Marx, but rather how class
in
> >usually discussed. It is normally discussed in my experience as a
deviation
> >from the norm which I take as middle class.
> >
> >Its one thing to say class relations "seem to be necessarily fundamental
to
> >the development of a child's concept of self and others as well as of
the
> >world into which s/he aspires" it is an entirely different matter of how
we
> >look at that internalization. In a country like the U.S. this
> >internalization tends to be looked at something that is negative,
abnormal,
> >in need of being fixed as apposed to having value in its own right.
> >
> >Nate
> >
> >> Nevertheless, whether economic class relations cohere into or form the
> >basis
> >> for a "community" (eg, a group that has picnics together on May Day or
> >the
> >> Paris Commune) they would still seem to be necessarily fundamental to
the
> >> development of a child's concept of self and others as well as of the
> >world
> >> into which s/he aspires.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Paul Dillon <dillonph who-is-at northcoast.com>
> >To: <xmca who-is-at weber.ucsd.edu>
> >Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:59 AM
> >Subject: Re: question on class
> >
> >
> >
>