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[Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action



My article only goes to issues like "resides both within and outside the mind" in presenting the problem, the dead end, which Hegel found a way out of. The concepts of mind and body are of course which legitimate concepts, and Hegel himself refers to them in this way in one of the quotes in my article. But *they are not fundamental concepts* for me or for Hegel. Further, "within and outside the mind" implies "two substances", i.e., Cartesian dualism, which you have to extract yourself from to make sense of Hegel or my article.

"My understanding of 'the material' is both interpretative and observable." I don't quite get that, though don't trouble about that. Ontological claims, such as those in the first few paragraphs of my article have to be taken *just as they are*. They are nothing to do with theories of physics or theories of psychology.

Yes, every writer gives you specific insights which are available from their point of view. And that is not limited to philosophy - art, drama, literature, ... all give us insights of their own. But sciences are such that concepts form a system; in each scientific theory all the concepts (if the theory is well constructed) fit together, and *will be incompatible with* the concepts (and terminology) of other theories. To you, all these theories are aspects of semiotics. But neither Saussure not Vygotsky were semioticians, so there is a danger in absorbing their ideas into what, *for them*, is an incompatible frame. You probably speak 6 languages, James, but if you jumble up the words of 6 languages in one sentence it is going to be junk. But you can still enjoy the cognitive and cultural benefits of the world views captured in 6 languages.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 16/07/2017 12:26 AM, James Ma wrote:
Andy, apologies for my digression from your point. The sign resides both within and outside the mind - this is my understanding from reading Peirce. Somehow the effect of your article (I'm still reading it) on me is that it makes me think more and more into Peirce...

My understanding of "the material" is both interpretative and observable.

Although I read Peirce and Vygotsky, the Saussurean/Hallidayan imagery is always present in my mind (due to a linguistics background). Anyway, I feel these thinkers sit together quite comfortably - all their ideas are complementary - and can be distilled into one word: semiotics.

James

/_____________________________________/

*/James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/



On 15 July 2017 at 13:28, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    James, I think you're using "material" in some
    specific sense which is unknown to me. It seems to me
    to be something to do with body language as opposed to
    speech, maybe practical consciousness rather than
    discursive consciousness. "Material" understood as
    meaning "made of matter" would simply be the opposite
    of "in my imagination". I find it difficult to get my
    head around the idea of a "sign in the mind" and if
    "mind" was some place other than the material world
    where a sign could be located. I'm sure what you are
    talking about is perfectly good, but I can't relate it
    to the absolutely basic ontological issue which you
    raised out of my paper about action.

    Andy

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Andy Blunden
    http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
    http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
    <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>

    On 15/07/2017 8:15 PM, James Ma wrote:

        Thanks for such helpful explanation, Andy.
        Regarding my last question, I mean one's feeling
        or sense perception involved in social practice in
        a social context possesses the material quality of
        a psychic image (a sign in the mind). This
        material quality can be one's facial expression or
        bodily movement connected with a particular feeling.

        James

        /_____________________________________/

        */James
        Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
        <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>



        On 15 July 2017 at 09:42, Andy Blunden
        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

            James, the meaning for words such as
        "material" and to
            a lesser extent the other words in your
        message have
            meanings which are extremely context (or
        discourse)
            dependent. The Stanford Encyclopaedia of
        Philosophy
            doesn't have a definition of Matter,
        considering it
            only in relation to Form, but their definition of
            Substance will do the trick. I follow Lenin and
            Vygotsky in my understanding of matter. (Hegel
        didn't
            like to use the word, because he took it as
        too linked
            to Atomism. Marx used "material" in a very
        specific
            way to do with reproduction of the means of life.)

            As to the philosophical meaning of "matter" I
        think I
            said it in the paper as succinctly as possible. If
            it's in the mind then it is not material. I
        can't make
            sense of your last question.

            Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
            Andy Blunden
        http://home.mira.net/~andy
        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
        http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>

            On 15/07/2017 6:28 PM, James Ma wrote:

                This is interesting to me, Andy. Do you
        rule out
                anything that has material quality but is
        actually
                associated with a mental sign (a sign in
        the mind,
                as Peirce would say)? Do you consider social
                practice (you mentioned earlier) to be
        tinted with
                the intrapsychological within oneself?

                James

                /_____________________________________/

                */James
Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
        <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>
                <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
        <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>>



                On 15 July 2017 at 07:11, Andy Blunden
                <ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:

                    No, it would be spreading confusion, Greg.

                    "Matter" in this context is everything
        outside
                of my
                    consciousness. "Activity" in this
        context is
                human,
                    social practice. Moving attention to the
                sub-atomic
                    level, a field where we have no common
        sense,
                sensuous
                    knowledge, does not help.

                    Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
                    Andy Blunden
        http://home.mira.net/~andy
        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
        http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>

                    On 15/07/2017 2:31 PM, Greg Thompson
        wrote:

                        Andy,
                        Just musing here but I'm wondering if
                "matter" is
                        anything more than activity,
        particularly when
                        considered at the sub-atomic level.
                        At that level, matter seems a lot more
                like the
                        holding of relations in some
        activity (not so
                        different from the Notion?).
                        Or would that be taking things too
        far?
                        -greg

                        On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
        Andy Blunden
                        <ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>> wrote:

                            Anyone who got interested in that
                material about
                            "Hegel on Action", here is my
                contribution.

        https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
<https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
        <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>>

                            Andy


                            --
------------------------------------------------------------
                            Andy Blunden
        http://home.mira.net/~andy
        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
        http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
<http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
        <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>>





                        --         Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
                        Assistant Professor
                        Department of Anthropology
                        880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
                        Brigham Young University
                        Provo, UT 84602
        http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
        <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
                <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
        <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>
<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
        <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
                <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
        <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>>