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[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces



Yes, Greg, I also thought of the connection with Perezhivanie when it comes to Peter's very interesting comment on the octave jump in "Some-where," and your comment on the two-part harmony. Definitely must have to do with difference, cause it is difference what we 'feel,' even if in some cases it may be a difference that achieves 'sameness'. 

Yet, I was also thinking that I can very well 'feel' moved reading a text where there is not sound, no shift in pitch... My two-years daughter, in hearing Trump, was also catching on all those non-verbal (she does not understand much English yet) signals when she called Trump 'enfadado' (angry). But then again, the same can be achieved by only words. I can get very very upset everyday reading the world's news ... 
So, yes, words can give thoughts, but not just thoughts. I also grew up listening to lots of English-speaking music when I was a child (e.g., my older sister's Suzanne Vega and also Supertramp albums were my favourites). I could not understand much of what they said, but they definitively made me feel. And I would say those were not 'thought-less' feelings. 

Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
Sent: 13 July 2017 21:07
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces

And I think I posted this a few months back, but here is a Democracy Now
tribute to Yip Harburg that includes an interview with his son (apologies
if someone else posted this and I missed it):
https://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/25/a_tribute_to_yip_harburg_the

Interesting to think about the the octave jump in "Some-where" and how it
adds emotional resonance. Seems to resonate with what is being taken up in
other threads here regarding perezhivanie, now? Two-part harmony?

-greg

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:

> Mike
>
>      What you say is interesting, but it is not my experience and not that
> of any I have talked so far (other than yourself). I can, for example,
> imagine winning the lottery. I can imagine even imagine that I felt a
> feeling that most would feel on that occurrence; however I do not feel
> those feelings if I imagine winning the lottery (I just tried it, by the
> way). I can imagine that I came home tired tomorrow evening, I can imagine
> that I was tired, but I do not feel tired when I do that imagining (even
> though I was tired last night so I know what those feeling were like). It
> may quite well be a lack in me and others.
>       Anyway, how does it feel when you imagine coming home tired or do I
> misunderstand. Are you saying you imagine coming home tired and find
> yourself feeling something - say irritation - or are you saying, in your
> body and mind, you feel what you normally identify as tiredness?
>
> Ed
>
> > On Jul 12, 2017, at  10:19 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
> won
> > the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
> you
> > like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a pathology
> (!)
> >
> > I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> > accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> > wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
> be
> > able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
> >
> > Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
> daughter,
> > Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
> Og
> > (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
> Siding
> > with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> blustering,
> > bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a number
> > of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
> become
> > mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
> >
> >
> > Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
> >
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
> can
> >> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
> (there is
> >> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
> says
> >> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> >>
> >> Ed Wall
> >>
> >>> On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> Harberg
> >>> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The
> >> book
> >>> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen
> >> to
> >>> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> >>> :-)
> >>>
> >>> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
> >>> resource.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> >> scoping
> >>>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions
> for
> >> you
> >>>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years
> >> ago
> >>>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
> >>>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> which
> >> I
> >>>> would also like to take a closer look at.
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind regards and many thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> Daniel
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> >>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi, Daniel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
> >>>> *inner
> >>>>> ear*,
> >>>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> without
> >>>>> words,
> >>>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> >> internal
> >>>>> voices
> >>>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
> >>>>> hearing
> >>>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it
> is
> >>>> the
> >>>>> surface
> >>>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> *person*,
> >>>> who
> >>>>> has
> >>>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces
> of
> >>>> this
> >>>>> inner
> >>>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> >> voices--
> >>>>> yes,
> >>>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> >>>>> experience
> >>>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> >> experiences
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> about
> >>>>> those
> >>>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> >> ability,
> >>>>> but I have
> >>>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings:
> >> my
> >>>>> inner
> >>>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd
> like
> >>>> to
> >>>>> take this
> >>>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of
> >> Ira
> >>>>> Gershwin
> >>>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> >>>>> Rainbow,
> >>>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg
> >> gave
> >>>> a
> >>>>> lot
> >>>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> >>>>> Words make you think a thought;
> >>>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> >>>>> conversation
> >>>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the
> >> unity
> >>>>> of thinking
> >>>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
> >>>> have
> >>>>> trouble
> >>>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> >>>> experiencing
> >>>>> emotions
> >>>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking
> >> about
> >>>>> feelings
> >>>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> >>>> cultural
> >>>>> experience
> >>>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My two cents.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> >>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> >>>> speech,
> >>>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> >>>>> musician,
> >>>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced
> >> at
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
> >>>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
> >>>> more
> >>>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
> >>>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
> >>>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> >>>> extreme
> >>>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who
> lost
> >>>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> practice
> >>>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate
> what
> >>>>> they
> >>>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
> >>>> Need
> >>>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> >>>> ability?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> >>>> events
> >>>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> quickened
> >>>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> >> feelings
> >>>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
> >>>>> alike,
> >>>>>> and different?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart
> and
> >>>> da
> >>>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> >>>> internal
> >>>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different?
> How
> >>>>> does
> >>>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate
> to
> >> a
> >>>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested
> >> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening
> but
> >>>>> not
> >>>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> >>>> reflection,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> other factors alter it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology
> >> offer
> >>>>> (or
> >>>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> >>>>> ability,
> >>>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> >>>>> recommend
> >>>>>> readings.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thank you Peter.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> >>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ulvi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
> >>>>> use
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> >>>> richness
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> ​the ​
> >>>>>>>> emotion
> >>>>>>>> ​
> >>>>>>>> and thought
> >>>>>>>> ​​
> >>>>>>>> ​of
> >>>>>>>> characters
> >>>>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> >>>>> works
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
> >>>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> specializes
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
> >>>>>> voices
> >>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>> both normal
> >>>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
> >>>>>>>> theatrical characters,
> >>>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> creative
> >>>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> >>>> voices
> >>>>>>> play
> >>>>>>>> in their
> >>>>>>>> work and thought.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
> >>>>>>>> Fernyhough
> >>>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> >>>> phenomenon
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
> >>>> in
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> development
> >>>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> >>>> study
> >>>>>>>> private speech
> >>>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> sociolinguistic
> >>>>>>>> analysis.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> >>>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> >>>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> >>>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> >>>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> >>>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> >>>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>> convey
> >>>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> >>>>>>>> Especially
> >>>>>>>>> inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> >>>>> Legend
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> love.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> >>>> characters
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> My questions are:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> >>>> work?
> >>>>>> i.e.
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> >>>>> terms
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> >>>>>> possess.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ulvi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>>>>> Director,
> >>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> >>>>> Director,
> >>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> >>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> >>>>> Fordham University
> >>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> >>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> >>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> >>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>


--
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson