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[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces



Good morning, Peter

The immediate winner was Kris Gutierrez!
Kris does not drink Irish whiskey, so the prize will be held over until the
next appropriate occasion.  :-)

The director? Francis Ford Coppola.
!!

Mike

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:19 AM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:

> Darn!  Because of my failing recall memory, I'm not gonna be the proud
> owner of a free bottle of Irish whiskey!
>
> But I can tell you all a little more about Yip Harberg's work: For one
> thing, underlying Finnian's Rainbow - like most of Harberg's creations - is
> a serious progressive political message, in this case one about immigration
> to America (and also racism in America). The quote from Harberg that I
> provided in my earlier email was one that I tripped over on the way to
> recovering this, more humorous,one: *My whole family has had trouble with
> immigrants ever since we first came to this country.*
>
> The Wizard of Oz was a political story about the loss of small farms in
> America (represented by the Scarecrow), the rise of manufacturing
> (represented by the Tin Man), and the timidity of the US government
> (represented by the Cowardly Lion) in regulating the growing banking
> industry which was pulling all the strings (represented by the Wizard
> behind the curtain). Harberg makes particular mention of the difficulty he
> had with the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow: For weeks he couldn't figure
> out a way to get an emotional lift out of the opening line - until he
> introduced an octave shift in the first word (Some - where). The meaning of
> the word was there, but it needed an emotional infusion from the music to
> make it do its job of *feeling a thought*.
>
> One final quote: *Music gives wings to words.*
>
> Glad to know there are Yip Harberg fans out there!
>
> Peter
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:47 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > A free bottle of Irish Whiskey to the first person who can
> identify,without
> > googling, the director of the film of Finian's Rainbow.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Imagine that ;-  )
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > >
> > > From: mike cole
> > > Sent: July 12, 2017 8:22 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
> > >
> > > Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
> > won
> > > the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
> > you
> > > like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a
> pathology
> > > (!)
> > >
> > > I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
> > > accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
> > > wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
> > be
> > > able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
> > >
> > > Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
> > daughter,
> > > Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
> > Og
> > > (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
> > Siding
> > > with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
> > > blustering,
> > > bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a
> number
> > > of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
> > become
> > > mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
> > can
> > > > feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
> > (there
> > > is
> > > > some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
> > says
> > > > “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
> > > >
> > > > Ed Wall
> > > >
> > > > > On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
> > > Harberg
> > > > > and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca!
> The
> > > > book
> > > > > appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to
> > listen
> > > > to
> > > > > Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> > > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a
> > great
> > > > > resource.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> > > > >
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > > > daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
> > > > scoping
> > > > >> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or
> questions
> > > for
> > > > you
> > > > >> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few
> > years
> > > > ago
> > > > >> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make
> > decisions -
> > > > >> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
> > > which
> > > > I
> > > > >> would also like to take a closer look at.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Kind regards and many thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Daniel
> > > > >> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> > > > >> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi, Daniel.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a
> > musician's
> > > > >> *inner
> > > > >>> ear*,
> > > > >>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
> > > without
> > > > >>> words,
> > > > >>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
> > > > internal
> > > > >>> voices
> > > > >>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests
> > that
> > > > >>> hearing
> > > > >>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception:
> > it
> > > is
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>> surface
> > > > >>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
> > > *person*,
> > > > >> who
> > > > >>> has
> > > > >>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only
> pieces
> > > of
> > > > >> this
> > > > >>> inner
> > > > >>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
> > > > voices--
> > > > >>> yes,
> > > > >>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> > > > >>> experience
> > > > >>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
> > > > experiences
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he
> > presents.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
> > > about
> > > > >>> those
> > > > >>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
> > > > ability,
> > > > >>> but I have
> > > > >>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar
> > strings:
> > > > my
> > > > >>> inner
> > > > >>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music,
> I'd
> > > like
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>> take this
> > > > >>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate
> > of
> > > > Ira
> > > > >>> Gershwin
> > > > >>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz,
> Finnian's
> > > > >>> Rainbow,
> > > > >>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?
> Harberg
> > > > gave
> > > > >> a
> > > > >>> lot
> > > > >>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
> > > > >>> Words make you think a thought;
> > > > >>> Songs make you feel a thought.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> > > > >>> conversation
> > > > >>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of
> the
> > > > unity
> > > > >>> of thinking
> > > > >>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality.
> > Personally, I
> > > > >> have
> > > > >>> trouble
> > > > >>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> > > > >> experiencing
> > > > >>> emotions
> > > > >>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable
> thinking
> > > > about
> > > > >>> feelings
> > > > >>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> > > > >> cultural
> > > > >>> experience
> > > > >>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> My two cents.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Peter
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> > > > >> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> > > > >> speech,
> > > > >>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm
> a
> > > > >>> musician,
> > > > >>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently
> > glanced
> > > > at
> > > > >>> in
> > > > >>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in
> > the
> > > > >>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might
> > be
> > > > >> more
> > > > >>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively
> > "hear"
> > > > >>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups
> > of)
> > > > >>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> > > > >> extreme
> > > > >>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré
> who
> > > lost
> > > > >>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
> > > practice
> > > > >>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert,
> audiate
> > > what
> > > > >>> they
> > > > >>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does
> > this.
> > > > >> Need
> > > > >>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> > > > >> ability?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others
> with
> > > > >> events
> > > > >>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
> > > quickened
> > > > >>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
> > > > feelings
> > > > >>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are
> > these
> > > > >>> alike,
> > > > >>>> and different?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized
> (Mozart
> > > and
> > > > >> da
> > > > >>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> > > > >> internal
> > > > >>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and
> different?
> > > How
> > > > >>> does
> > > > >>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune)
> relate
> > > to
> > > > a
> > > > >>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now
> > suggested
> > > > to
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are
> happening
> > > but
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> > > > >> reflection,
> > > > >>> or
> > > > >>>> other factors alter it?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and
> neurobiology
> > > > offer
> > > > >>> (or
> > > > >>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical
> experience,
> > > > >>> ability,
> > > > >>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in,
> or
> > > > >>> recommend
> > > > >>>> readings.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Daniel
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <
> ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> Thank you Peter.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Ulvi
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> > > > >>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Ulvi,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and
> > its
> > > > >>> use
> > > > >>>> in
> > > > >>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> > > > >> richness
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>> ​the ​
> > > > >>>>>> emotion
> > > > >>>>>> ​
> > > > >>>>>> and thought
> > > > >>>>>> ​​
> > > > >>>>>> ​of
> > > > >>>>>> characters
> > > > >>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> > > > >>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague
> who
> > > > >>> works
> > > > >>>>> with
> > > > >>>>>> Vygotsky's
> > > > >>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
> > > specializes
> > > > >>> in
> > > > >>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who
> > hear
> > > > >>>> voices
> > > > >>>>> -
> > > > >>>>>> both normal
> > > > >>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue
> > of
> > > > >>>>>> theatrical characters,
> > > > >>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research -
> into
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>> creative
> > > > >>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> > > > >> voices
> > > > >>>>> play
> > > > >>>>>> in their
> > > > >>>>>> work and thought.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in
> > which
> > > > >>>>>> Fernyhough
> > > > >>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> > > > >> phenomenon
> > > > >>>>> that
> > > > >>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest
> > stage
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > >>>>>> development
> > > > >>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose
> to
> > > > >> study
> > > > >>>>>> private speech
> > > > >>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to
> > linguistic
> > > > >>> and
> > > > >>>>>> sociolinguistic
> > > > >>>>>> analysis.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> > > > >>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> > > > >>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> > > > >>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> > > > >>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> > > > >>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> > > > >>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Peter
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <
> ulvi.icil@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a
> work
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>>>> convey
> > > > >>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his
> characters.
> > > > >>>>>> Especially
> > > > >>>>>>> inner thought.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> > > > >>> Legend
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> love.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> > > > >> characters
> > > > >>>> in
> > > > >>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> My questions are:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> > > > >> work?
> > > > >>>> i.e.
> > > > >>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work
> in
> > > > >>> terms
> > > > >>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human
> beings
> > > > >>>> possess.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Ulvi
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > > > >>>>>> Director,
> > > > >>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
> > > > >>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > > > >>>>>> Fordham University
> > > > >>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > > > >>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > > > >>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > > > >>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > > > >>> Director,
> > > > >>> Office of Institutional Research
> > > > >>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > > > >>> Fordham University
> > > > >>> Thebaud Hall-202
> > > > >>> Bronx, NY 10458
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > > > >>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > > > >>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> Director,
> Office of Institutional Research
> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> Fordham University
> Thebaud Hall-202
> Bronx, NY 10458
>
> Phone: (718) 817-2243
> Fax: (718) 817-3817
> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>