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[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces



Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one can feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like (there is some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent, says “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.

Ed Wall

> On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> 
> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip Harberg
> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The book
> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen to
> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
> :-)
> 
> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
> resource.
> 
> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm scoping
>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions for you
>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years ago
>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling, which I
>> would also like to take a closer look at.
>> 
>> Kind regards and many thanks,
>> 
>> Daniel
>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi, Daniel.
>>> 
>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
>> *inner
>>> ear*,
>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound without
>>> words,
>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and internal
>>> voices
>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
>>> hearing
>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it is
>> the
>>> surface
>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a *person*,
>> who
>>> has
>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces of
>> this
>>> inner
>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
>>> 
>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner voices--
>>> yes,
>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
>>> experience
>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical experiences
>>> that
>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
>>> 
>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered about
>>> those
>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that ability,
>>> but I have
>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings: my
>>> inner
>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
>>> 
>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd like
>> to
>>> take this
>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of Ira
>>> Gershwin
>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
>>> Rainbow,
>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg gave
>> a
>>> lot
>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
>>> 
>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
>>> Words make you think a thought;
>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
>>> 
>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
>>> conversation
>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the unity
>>> of thinking
>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
>> have
>>> trouble
>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
>> experiencing
>>> emotions
>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking about
>>> feelings
>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
>> cultural
>>> experience
>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
>>> 
>>> My two cents.
>>> 
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
>> speech,
>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
>>> musician,
>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced at
>>> in
>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
>>>> 
>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
>> more
>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
>> extreme
>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who lost
>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score, practice
>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate what
>>> they
>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
>> Need
>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
>> ability?
>>>> 
>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
>> events
>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the quickened
>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of feelings
>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
>>> alike,
>>>> and different?
>>>> 
>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart and
>> da
>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
>> internal
>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different? How
>>> does
>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate to a
>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
>>>> 
>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested to
>>> be
>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening but
>>> not
>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
>> reflection,
>>> or
>>>> other factors alter it?
>>>> 
>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology offer
>>> (or
>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
>>> ability,
>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
>>> recommend
>>>> readings.
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you Peter.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ulvi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
>>> use
>>>> in
>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
>> richness
>>>> of
>>>>>> ​the ​
>>>>>> emotion
>>>>>> ​
>>>>>> and thought
>>>>>> ​​
>>>>>> ​of
>>>>>> characters
>>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
>>> works
>>>>> with
>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who specializes
>>> in
>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
>>>> voices
>>>>> -
>>>>>> both normal
>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
>>>>>> theatrical characters,
>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
>> the
>>>>>> creative
>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
>> voices
>>>>> play
>>>>>> in their
>>>>>> work and thought.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
>>>>>> Fernyhough
>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
>> phenomenon
>>>>> that
>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
>> in
>>>> the
>>>>>> development
>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
>> study
>>>>>> private speech
>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
>>> and
>>>>>> sociolinguistic
>>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
>> to
>>>>> convey
>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
>>>>>> Especially
>>>>>>> inner thought.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
>>> Legend
>>>> of
>>>>>>> love.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
>> characters
>>>> in
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
>> work?
>>>> i.e.
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
>>> terms
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
>>>> possess.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>> Director,
>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>> Fordham University
>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>> 
>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>> 
>>