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[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces



Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip Harberg
and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca! The book
appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to listen to
Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
:-)

Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a great
resource.

Thanks Peter and Daniel.

mike



On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm scoping
> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or questions for you
> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few years ago
> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make decisions -
> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling, which I
> would also like to take a closer look at.
>
> Kind regards and many thanks,
>
> Daniel
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Daniel.
> >
> > Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a musician's
> *inner
> > ear*,
> > but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound without
> > words,
> > the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and internal
> > voices
> > that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests that
> > hearing
> > voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception: it is
> the
> > surface
> > level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a *person*,
> who
> > has
> > an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only pieces of
> this
> > inner
> > person may come to be experienced consciously.
> >
> > Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner voices--
> > yes,
> > deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
> > experience
> > of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical experiences
> > that
> > you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he presents.
> >
> > As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered about
> > those
> > musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that ability,
> > but I have
> > absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar strings: my
> > inner
> > (and outer) ear is all I need.
> >
> > Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music, I'd like
> to
> > take this
> > opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate of Ira
> > Gershwin
> > and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz, Finnian's
> > Rainbow,
> > and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?  Harberg gave
> a
> > lot
> > of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
> >
> > Music makes you feel a feeling;
> > Words make you think a thought;
> > Songs make you feel a thought.
> >
> > The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
> > conversation
> > on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of the unity
> > of thinking
> > and emotions in the formation of the human personality. Personally, I
> have
> > trouble
> > conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
> experiencing
> > emotions
> > when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable thinking about
> > feelings
> > than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
> cultural
> > experience
> > that many men excel at, I suspect.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
> speech,
> > > its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm a
> > musician,
> > > they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently glanced at
> > in
> > > The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in the
> > > contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
> > >
> > > - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might be
> more
> > > specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively "hear"
> > > melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups of)
> > > instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
> extreme
> > > cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré who lost
> > > their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score, practice
> > > toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert, audiate what
> > they
> > > are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does this.
> Need
> > > one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
> ability?
> > >
> > > - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others with
> events
> > > (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the quickened
> > > pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of feelings
> > > that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are these
> > alike,
> > > and different?
> > >
> > > - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized (Mozart and
> da
> > > Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
> internal
> > > to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and different? How
> > does
> > > parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune) relate to a
> > > live composer setting words from a past poet?
> > >
> > > - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now suggested to
> > be
> > > the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are happening but
> > not
> > > heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
> reflection,
> > or
> > > other factors alter it?
> > >
> > > I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and neurobiology offer
> > (or
> > > promise) to help us understand these types of musical experience,
> > ability,
> > > and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in, or
> > recommend
> > > readings.
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you Peter.
> > > >
> > > > Ulvi
> > > >
> > > > 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
> > > > pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
> > > >
> > > > > Ulvi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and its
> > use
> > > in
> > > > > the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
> richness
> > > of
> > > > > ​the ​
> > > > > emotion
> > > > > ​
> > > > > and thought
> > > > > ​​
> > > > > ​of
> > > > >  characters
> > > > > ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
> > > > > in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague who
> > works
> > > > with
> > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > theory of private and inner speech development, but who specializes
> > in
> > > > > the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who hear
> > > voices
> > > > -
> > > > > both normal
> > > > > and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue of
> > > > > theatrical characters,
> > > > > he does provide insights - based on evidence and research - into
> the
> > > > > creative
> > > > > writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
> voices
> > > > play
> > > > > in their
> > > > > work and thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in which
> > > > > Fernyhough
> > > > > manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
> phenomenon
> > > > that
> > > > > is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest stage
> in
> > > the
> > > > > development
> > > > > of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose to
> study
> > > > > private speech
> > > > > because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to linguistic
> > and
> > > > > sociolinguistic
> > > > > analysis.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
> > > amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
> > > aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
> > > mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
> > > iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
> > > DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
> > > > > Ourselves/dp/0465096808
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a work
> to
> > > > convey
> > > > > > the internal richness of emotion and thought of his characters.
> > > > > Especially
> > > > > > inner thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
> > Legend
> > > of
> > > > > > love.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
> characters
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > struggle in a triangle of love.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My questions are:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
> work?
> > > i.e.
> > > > > in
> > > > > > terms of the inner thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work in
> > terms
> > > > of
> > > > > > human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human beings
> > > possess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ulvi
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > > > > Director,
> > > > > Office of Institutional Research
> > > > > <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > > > > Fordham University
> > > > > Thebaud Hall-202
> > > > > Bronx, NY 10458
> > > > >
> > > > > Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > > > > Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > > > > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
> > Director,
> > Office of Institutional Research
> > <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
> > Fordham University
> > Thebaud Hall-202
> > Bronx, NY 10458
> >
> > Phone: (718) 817-2243
> > Fax: (718) 817-3817
> > email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
> >
>