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[Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural Perpsective

Any time that David wishes to share the electronic texts of his new translations, provided he is confident of their reliability, marxists.org will be delighted to publish them.


Andy Blunden
On 22/05/2017 11:23 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
Thanks David for sharing the link to the original text, and for sharing the English translation later. With regard to Mike's note, it seems Marxists.org already does a wonderful service as archive. I can always help contributors to do the extra work if another source needs to be shared.

From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
Sent: 21 May 2017 23:27
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: RES: Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural      Perpsective

I really wish you WOULD have a look at it, Mike. It's giving me a lot of
trouble. It's in this:


(starts on p. 233)

The main trouble I'm having is with the words "schizotomy", "mesotomy",
"isotomy", and "topo-human", which as far as I can tell do not exist in
either Russian or English.

I'm also having trouble with names: the stenographer uses "kelt" for
"Volkelt" and I think that "Bleder" is really Bleuler (although that may be
a mistake of the transcriber and not the stenographer). But who the devil
is this Osburgen? Could it be Asperger? He WAS working on "schizoid"
children at that time (he hadn't actually started exterminating them as
part of the Nazi T4 programme). But he hadn't really started publishing, I
don't think.

If you wait a week or so, I'll have a first draft of an English
translation I can show the list. I'm about half done. But it turns out that
they actually want you to write thesis when you do a Ph.D.!

David Kellogg
Macquarie University

"The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"

Free Chapters Downloadable at:


Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some Ruminations
on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children

Free E-print Downloadable at:


On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:29 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

David- I stumbled into this conversation tardily but hope one day to get
more deeply into the topics raised around the Vygtosky texts. In trying to
follow the argument, i would be helped enormously if it were possible to
site the sources of the texts in a way that is readily accessible.  If I
want to read "Negative Phases of the
Transitional Age",
​for example, is there a web site or an English language where one can go
to read larger segments of the text?

Access to the texts would help enormously in getting us, more or less, on
the same page, both metaphorically and digitally at the same time.

If this is complicated, perhaps Alfredo could organize a simple way to
allow people rapid access to the texts.

The time appears ripe to consider the question of the bio-social-cultural
nature of human development again.
Your careful work with the pedagogical essays appears to be a key text in
figuring out Vygotsky's views and our own.

At present i am trying to think my way through this terrain in order to put
together a talk at the Piaget Society meetings in early June. Roy Pea and I
are giving a talk there​. The conference theme is "technology and

Quite naturally there is a great deal of overlap between that topic and
this conversation. Being able to explore that overlap more closely would
certainly be useful, personally speaking.


On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 3:39 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>

Thanks, Martin. I'm reading Vygotsky's lecture on "Negative Phases of the
Transitional Age", i.e. adolescence. Its' a late lecture, a little under
year before he died. But in it he does argue that the central
of adolescence isn't sexuality or teenage rebellion or any of the other
behavioural symptoms that his colleagues were focused on. He wants
something that can generalize to every other crisis as well, and he
what he calls "schizoticism" which is probably what we would call today
"schizotypal personality disorder", except that for him it's not a
at all, an in fact he argues that it is the children who show only feeble
schizotic symptoms or who refuse to show them who are seriously
And he suggests that what generalizes to every other crisis is the notion
of a house divided against itself, what he calls "понятие о расщеплении",
or the concept of the differentiation, the division, the split, just as

Weirdly, I think that your stable periods don't link together so well.
That's not just the lack of grammatical parallelism in the nomenclature
("infancy", "toddler[hood]", "early/middle childhood" "teenager[hood]"--I
can see that you are trying to stay away from a nomenclature that implies
schooling on the one hand and use common-sense folk categories on the
other. I think it's because you are using a model of stable periods based
on world-building rather than on language, and the worlds of "Greatwe",
"irresistible invitations", "appearances", etc don't really seem linked
way that physical-biological-psychological differentiation are linked.

Your stable periods work well for your project (yes, culture, but  within
that getting your students to rediscover both the strengths and weakness
Piaget). But I think they won't work so well for mine (yes, language, and
within language and the "world-building" function of
language, distinguishing what Halliday would call the Experiential rather
than the Logical metafunction--the feeling/thought of what's happening
rather than the whole question of how it all fits together.)

I didn't really mean to inflict my book chapter on poor Henry--publishers
are now trying to get authors to shoulder almost ALL of the sales as well
as the editing work, and one of the things they do is provide all these
neat links that you stick in your signature when you take part in a
discussion list; my book sales have been, like two or three copies a
so I thought I'd try it. I notice that (for all that real, unfeigned
modesty and humility), Henry knows onewhole hell of a lot more about
Langacker on the one hand and Wundt on the other than I do (I have read
bits of both but I don't have anything like his understanding of either).

But there really is something I really do share with Henry that I think
explains right away how he responded to my book chapter. It's this:
Vygotsky talks about "communication" and "generalization" (or "sharing"
"about that shared"); Halliday about "dialogue" and "narrative". It seems
to me that by whatever name we give them, this linguistic woofing and
warping are the weft that join the stable periods and the crises
The difference is that during stable periods, the
communication/sharing/dialogue threads are in front and the
threads go in back. But during the crises, the child is trying to "turn
tables" on the environment, so that the child is source of development
the environment is site. During the crisis, we see all those loose
all those knots and breaks--and yet also, there is the same pattern,
like a photographic negative--in the back of the carpet.
David Kellogg
Macquarie University

"The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"

Free Chapters Downloadable at:


Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children

Free E-print Downloadable at:

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:51 AM, Martin John Packer <
Diagram attached, I hope.


On May 19, 2017, at 4:34 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that diagram came through. Also I too am
interested in what you think of Shpet.

On May 19, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Martin John Packer <
mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
Hi David,

Here’s how I handled the matter of the age periods: the stages and
crises; tell me what you think.
Infancy - A Practical Understanding of the World
Infancy - Towards Biological Differentiation
Toddlerhood - A World of Irresistible Invitations
Toddlerhood - Towards Psychological Differentiation
Early Childhood  - How Things Appear, And How They Are
Early Childhood  - Towards Inner and Outer
Middle Childhood - Understanding Institutional Reality
Middle Childhood - Towards the Actual and the Possible
The Teenage Years - Adolescent, or Adult?
The Teenage Years - Towards Adulthood

The “Towards” in these chapter titles reflects the fact that I
to treat each stage in two chapters, and there was usually less to say
about each crisis than about each stage, so I couldn’t dedicate a whole
chapter to each crisis. Here’s how I described the notions of ‘stage’
"Stages are qualitatively distinct from one another, not only in the
form of intelligence that the child employs (as Piaget noted), but also
the child’s way of being in the world. Each stage involves a specific
of relating to the world and relating to self, and as a result of this
new way of experiencing and understanding.
"Transitions are those times when new properties rapidly emerge. A
transition is a point of inflection, a crisis. In a transition there
is a
dramatic change in the child’s way of being in the world, so that she
discovers new possibilities in that world and gains a new sense of
of her abilities, her capacities. During the stage that follows, the
progressively masters this new way of living in the world. These
transitions are truly changes not only in the child but in the whole
child-caregiver-niche system of which she is a component.”
And the diagram below (if it comes through) illustrates the sequence
think the third should read Appearance & Reality).


On May 18, 2017, at 7:27 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com
<mailto:dkellogg60@gmail.com>> wrote:
Martin, I think if I'd written something like that I'd be pretty
too. (A propos--or by the bye--do you have a publisher for the Shpet
schtick you are up to...?)

Here's something for the revised edition. The way Vygotsky explains
We" in the Pedological Lectures is a little different and a lot
wittier. He
says it is a "Grandwe" in the sense of your Grandpa--that is, the
there before you were even a gleam in your Daddy's eye. (Vygotsky
address the students with "You and we").

I have been thinking how to "popularize" the age periods without
vulgarizing them (you know, what Bruner says about being able to
anything to anybody in some honest way).

You and we (our little Grandwe) know perfectly well that Vygotsky
that zone of proximal development in years (it's a "next" zone of
development, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about it unless:

a) you have the age periods and

b) you have some set of problems--not the Binet problems!--that will
correlate in some non-arbitrary way to the next age period.

That means that the "next zone of development" for Vygotsky studies
to try to turn him into a failed Gestaltist (pace Yasnitsky and van
Veer) but rather to try to figure out some way to get people to take
age periods seriously no matter how busy and how impatient with
discursive and apparently indecisive formulations they are.

What do you think of this?

Birth--Social Situation of Development: Instinct confronted by
intersubjectivity. Central Neoformation: "Pre-we"
Infancy--SSD: Physiologically independent but biologically
CNF: "Grandwe"
One--SSD: Proto-speech confronted by proper speech. CNF:
Early Childhood--SSD: Biologically independent but interpersonally
(interactionally) dependent. CNF: "Grandspeech"
Three--SSD: Affect confronted by the 'antipode' of will.  CNF:
Preschool--SSD: Interpersonally independent but psychologically
('reactive' learning). CNF: "Grandwill"
Seven--SSD: Inner personality confronted by outer persona. CNF:
School Age: Psychologically independent but intellectually
(academically) dependent. CNF: "Grandme"
Thirteen: Original thinking confronted by imitation. CNF:
Adolescence: Intellectually independent but socioeconomically
CNF: "Grandconcepts" (nontheoretical concepts, tinged with concrete
Seventeen SSD: In the USSR, school leaving. CNF: "Pre-Life"

You could write the Crises on your palm and the Stable Periods along
finger. (Hard to read it, though....)

David Kellogg
Macquarie University

"The Great Globe and All Who It Inherit:
Narrative and Dialogue in Story-telling with
Vygotsky, Halliday, and Shakespeare"

Free Chapters Downloadable at:

Recent Article: Thinking of feeling: Hasan, Vygotsky, and Some
on the Development of Narrative in Korean Children

Free E-print Downloadable at:


On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Maria Judith Sucupira Costa Lins <
mariasucupiralins@terra.com.br> wrote:

Thank you for the chapter. Maria

-----Mensagem original-----
De: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
Em nome de Martin John Packer
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de maio de 2017 20:05
Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
Assunto: [Xmca-l] Re: Child Development: Understanding a Cultural

Thanks Alfredo. It was fun to write, and it would not have been
except for what I have learned over the years from some very smart
number of whom hang out on this very discussion group.


On May 17, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
<a.j.gil@iped.uio.no<mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:

Thanks for shamelessly sharing your work, Martin. The chapter looks
like the way it draws connections throughout diverse theories,
common ground across dual systems theory, dynamic field theory, and

behalf of Martin John Packer
Sent: 18 May 2017 00:10
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l]  Child Development: Understanding a Cultural
A few months ago I shamelessly promoted my new textbook, Child
Understanding a Cultural Perspective, published by Sage at only $46
paperback edition, $33 or less for the various electronic editions.

There is now a sample chapter available online: Chapter 5, one of
chapters on infancy: