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[Xmca-l] Re: Contrasting 'use-value' & 'value'



Thanks Andy as always ! But if I may , first it's not a necessity that the title of a book expresses the unit the more so that with Vygotsky we have the title as 'Thinking and Speech' but the 'word meaning' as the 'unit' . Second , with capital as the focus of the book and with the method and the way Marx advances his argument , we notice that he aims at penetrating the genesis and development of this concept not as the point of departure but as the ultimate whole and the route it traversed to reach this point because with capital as indicated here we have to take it as the global universal and such a whole as a universality ordinarily cannot be the smallest indivisible unit of analysis. However , I should , of fairness and the inaccessibility of deeper understanding , accept the logic you use to justify the point. One more point , though Ilyenko confirmed both Leontiev and Rubinshtein with admiration , he had critiques on both of them realized in one paper maybe presented in Jreep. Therefore , I'd like to rely on Ilyenko when some controversial matter occurs. And to this day no one of authority has cleared to me what was behind the fact that Ilyenko remained silent about Vygotsky to the end of his life . Is there any document left about this puzzle?
You know I have all of your papers and even books including the one referenced ; I'll read it again more carefully.Thanks!BestHaydi  

      From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
 To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
 Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2017, 17:57:26
 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Contrasting 'use-value' & 'value'
   
Haydi, the title of Marx's book is "Capital" so obviously it 
is a book about capital, not a book about simple commodity 
production. And yet his starting point (and the first 3 
chapters) are about commodity production. But in chapter 4, 
Marx makes an inversion. The unit was C-M-C and it now 
becomes M-C-M'. The first unit is a commodity, the second 
unit is a capital.

It is to the great credit of A N Leontyev that for all his 
many faults he saw this two-level character of social 
formations. Vygotsky had it too, but he did not make it so 
explicit, with the result that ANL did not see that Vygotsky 
had already prefigured his discovery.

Anyway, it's all in this paper: 
https://www.academia.edu/14013616/Goethe_Hegel_and_Marx - 
It's pretty easy to see how Vygotsky fits into this schema.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making 

On 20/04/2017 10:47 PM, ‪Haydi Zulfei‬ ‪ wrote:
> Andy :
>
> Through your argument you reach : "The Unit is Capital" . 
> Where am I mistaken ?
>
> Don't we say the 'unit' is the smallest no longer 
> divisible part that has the properties of the whole ? And 
> Michael as well as all of us say Marx does not , all of a 
> sudden , say this is what the commodity is or this is what 
> the capital is. We are told that he develops and nourishes 
> the 'thing' he initiates his argument with and progresses 
> , in size of a book length , toward the point he reaches , 
> as you say , the molecular or molar entity as 'unit' .
>
> The C--M--C (commodity--money--commodity) being converted 
> in the Money--Commodity--Money still , I suppose , does 
> need to be developed to reach the point mentioned above .
>
> Is not that point the 'abstract labour' and therefrom the 
> 'surplus value' ? that glitch , that tangle , that knot , 
> that riddle that caused all complications with respect to 
> prior economists and with respect to throwing light on the 
> difference between barter and exchange (the push or the 
> arrival of the trader or the capitalist into the process 
> doing the trick of equal contract or transaction 
> concealing the undetachable surplus 'representamen' from 
> the total not partial wage labour 'ground' all this 
> causing alienation ? not reducing of the glory and 
> grandeur of Man , this noble creature of God non-relative 
> to chimpanzees fallen from the Heaven to the wrath of the 
> Divine fed not with morsels 'the filth of the economy' but 
> with the versatile non-material blessings of the motley 
> spirits 'maybe Trumpian' to the belly expansion ? 
> Alienation-please notice this is the biggest thing for the 
> Grand Duke Moralists- that is , causing the RELATION 
> between things to appear as relations between men as 
> involving in equal partnership thus preserving the 
> 'dignity' of Man BUT IN FACT SACRIFICING ALL MORES AND 
> ETHOS AND EIDOS AND LOGOS AT THE FOOT OF THE FILTHIEST LIE 
> OF THE PAST HISTORY OF NOT MAN ALONE BUT ALL BEAUTIFUL 
> ANIMATE OF THE UNIVERSE dehumanizing him and robbing him 
> of his essence and true identity ? This is where the 
> actual metamorphasis and conversion is really done ! That 
> is , where there what is hidden within the material 
> process of production , itself also live material , arises 
> as some ideal of falsification and lying imposed on man . 
> Once we had the good fortune of a collapse!! Since then , 
> we are incessantly eulogizing over the trodden path of 
> deviation , alleviations , mistracing trying to inculcate 
> mores and monads and vital units into the deadening 
> Universe assumingly re-incarnating the fleeing fleeting 
> enlightening soul into this corpse of once eating from the 
> forbidden fruit or tracking the misguiding path not yet 
> showing the actual path of blocking the way to the trick 
> but attempting to discover the analogies which yield but 
> (apologetically) the rotten fruit. (This paragraph maybe 
> all paragraphs are in fact a consult)
>
> If what I say is not the unit , then , with 'capital' we 
> are meaning the accumulation of that initial unnoticeable 
> stolen amount
> of surplus in such a size and magnitude that since its 
> stage of 'imperialism' has gone so far off as to create 
> its peak point of 'GLOBALIZATION' which for the 
> transnationals would mean 'utter prosperity and the utmost 
> freedom disguised as the so-called democracy felt as the 
> daily genocide and slaughter , tyranny , threats , peril , 
> intimidation and destruction. We are now supposedly 
> following Marx of the modernest brand . The old brands 
> enunciated and proclaimed 'liberation' . First what is the 
> actual point of the surplus sign/discourse/utterance , 
> etc. At what point is theft carried out ? Is the 
> accumulation beneficial or detrimental as is with Marx? 
> Where's the 'globalization' and what destiny awaits 
> mankind with mere discourse and ideal exchanges as 
> depicted ? Between North Korea and America ideal and 
> material is now openly in progress and exchange . America 
> "says" THE SWORD IS READY ; NORTH KOREA WILL "LAUNCH" 
> ANOTHER ROCKET . That is , the outcome of 'matter in 
> motion dissolved and incarnated into sign' as declared by 
> one colleague not paying attention to this one-way of 
> 'moving' alien to dialectics and of the analogy partially 
> discovered leading to signification prior to all other 
> ontologies. Even Ilyenko at one point rejects development 
> as the self-moving of the matter with the thinking 
> attribute as said by Spinoza and Vygotsky has limits to 
> Spinozist doctrine. And last : signification ==> all other 
> ontologies  Marx : Being==>consciousness
>
> Marx against Marx!
>
> Best
>
> Haydi
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> *To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, 20 April 2017, 5:42:35
> *Subject:* [Xmca-l] Re: Contrasting 'use-value' & 'value'
>
> The structure of "Thinking and Speech" is that the early
> chapters begin with the Word and the later chapters focus on
> the Concept. I take this as a guide as to what Vygotsky
> meant by "word", and that is not in the narrow sense. A word
> is the sign for a concept, and this is often 2 or 3 words,
> an "expression."
>
> "Utterance" is Bakhtin's unit and it is quite different from
> "word." An utterance is defined in terms of transactions
> between interlocutors. An utterance begins when someone
> starts speaking and ends when they hand the talking stick on
> to the next person. That could be an entire speech, or it
> could be a single exclamation. An utterance may reference a
> thousand concepts or none at all.
>
> Two quite different science are built on these two units.
>
> Note that Marx's "Capital" has the structure of "Thinking
> and Speech" in that only the first 4 chapters use the
> commodity as a unit, and once Marx inverts the unit (C-M-C
> becomes M-C-M') the unit is capital. And yet I know of no
> analogous structure in Bakhtin's work .... but then, I don't
> haven't studied Bakhtin.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making 
>
>
> On 20/04/2017 10:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil wrote:
> > Andy, could you give bit more on that distinction 
> between word and utterance as it pertains to the ongoing 
> discussion? I am interested. Also, I note that different 
> participants in the thread have used the different terms, 
> 'sign,' and 'utterance.'
> >
> > Alfredo
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of 
> Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> > Sent: 20 April 2017 02:26
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Contrasting 'use-value' & 'value'
> >
> > and as a further note of caution, the unit in "Thinking and
> > Speech" is a word, not an utterance, and yet it is utterance
> > which seems to be analogous to "commodity."
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> > 
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> >
> > On 20/04/2017 7:01 AM, Julian Williams wrote:
> >> Michael/all
> >>
> >> I  go back a few posts (as ever being a bit slower than 
> this list-serve
> >> demands - let me do this before the discussion moves to 
> 'binocular
> >> vision') and challenge the metaphor of 
> commodity/utterance: I can see it
> >> has merit but also I want to look at the limitations.
> >>
> >> You say: 'the sign is to the verbal exchange what the 
> commodity is to the
> >> Commodity-exchange' … But I think I was asking for a 
> characterisation of
> >> the larger totality involved - e.g. The 'economy/mode 
> of production and
> >> its contradictions/collapse' and 'what - dialogue?'
> >>
> >> And I think Andy B agrees with you when he says 'both 
> take an
> >> artefact-mediated relation between individuals as the 
> unit'… But suggests
> >> he recognises my problem when he refers to 'its 
> language' (or I might say
> >> 'consciousness', 'discourse'  or maybe 'intercourse').
> >>
> >> But - as I argued in critique of the metaphor 'labour = 
> learning', this
> >> mapping only goes so far, and has certain dangers. The 
> relation between
> >> commodity/economy (and the mode of production) and 
> utterance/discourse
> >> (and the ideological super/infra-structure) is much 
> more interesting in
> >> the concrete relations of history. I refer to Marx (the 
> German ideology)
> >> and Volosinov.
> >>
> >> In reality the relation between commodity production and
> >> 'sign-related/mediated' discourse (Marx calls 
> 'intercourse') is
> >> dialectical. Each 'mediates' the other in historical 
> development, and even
> >> in collective production-and-dialogue.
> >>
> >> Thus, I suggest, the 'exchange/use value' of an 
> utterance/dialogic
> >> exchange maybe ought to be examined in the ideological 
> context of its
> >> relationship with the 'whole' of social re/production 
> where class power
> >> becomes visible. I don't know how to do this, but the 
> argument is there in
> >> Bourdieu: the power relations between people are part 
> of the
> >> capital-mediated structure of relations in a field 
> (including the field of
> >> opinion/discourse), and this explains the forms of 
> discourse that express
> >> these power relationships and help to hold powerful 
> positions in place in
> >> the field. In this view it is not possible to identify 
> the 'value' of an
> >> utterance or a sign outside of this wider analysis… and 
> an analysis of the
> >> particular discursive/cultural field within its wider 
> sociality.
> >>
> >> Sorry this is a bit prolix and so likely to provoke 
> tangential responses:
> >> I did not have time tonight to write a shorter more 
> focussed post.
> >>
> >> Best wishes
> >>
> >> Julian
> >>
> >> Ps The separate discussion on mediation: this might be 
> another thread. I
> >> only want to note here that the mediation of the 
> 'intercourse' through its
> >> 'other' in the material form of 'production' (I call 
> the economy above)
> >> and vice versa does not involve a mediator 'between' 
> the two, but is
> >> purely hegelian in seeing the mediation of 'x' through 
> 'not x' in a
> >> totality.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 18/04/2017 16:34, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >> Wolff-Michael Roth" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com 
> <mailto:wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Larry, do not be confused. Take it with Bateson (Mind 
> and Nature), and see
> >>> Andy and Michael as two eyes. You then get this:
> >>>
> >>> It is correct (and a great improvement) to begin to 
> think of the
> >>> two parties to the interaction as two eyes , each 
> giving a monocular view
> >>> of what goes on and , together , giving a binocular 
> view in depth. This
> >>> double view is the relationship . (p.133)
> >>>
> >>> What is gained by comparing the data collected by one eye
> >>> with the data collected by the other? Typically , both 
> eyes are aimed at
> >>> the same region of the surrounding universe, and this 
> might seem to be
> >>> a wasteful use of the sense organs. But the anatomy 
> indicates that very
> >>> considerable advantage must accrue from this usage. 
> The innervation of
> >>> the two retinas and the creation at the optic chiasma 
> of pathways for the
> >>> redistribution of information is such an extraordinary 
> feat of
> >>> morphogenesis
> >>> as must surely denote great evolutionary advantage . 
> (p.69)
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ------
> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >>> Applied Cognitive Science
> >>> MacLaurin Building A567
> >>> University of Victoria
> >>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> >>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth 
> <http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth><http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >>>
> >>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> >>> 
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mat
> >>> 
> hematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:18 AM, Andy Blunden 
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> different trajectories, Larry.
> >>>>
> >>>> a
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Andy Blunden
> >>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> >>>> 
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> >>>> On 18/04/2017 11:44 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com 
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Andy, Julian, Michael,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My learning curve at this moment is in the way of 
> Michael describing
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> back and forth double movement. That is both 
> giving/receiving, both
> >>>>> (expressing/listening) occurring WITHIN our 
> relationship. This prior
> >>>>> to or
> >>>>> more primordial then taking the individual stance as 
> primary and the
> >>>>> relation as derivative.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So... In this ‘spirit’ I will pose a question?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy says: ‘artefact mediated relation BETWEEN 
> INDIVIDUALS as a unit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael says: You remain with back-and-forth 
> movement that is NEVER
> >>>>> action but IS transcation. Here the back-and-forth 
> ‘relation’ is the
> >>>>> UNIT,
> >>>>> and the individuals emerge from WITHIN this 
> primordial double relation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Are Andy and Michael on the same trajectory, 
> shifting the accent, or
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> imdividuals situated differently in the comtrasting 
> notions of units.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In particular does Andy ‘figure’ bridges whereas 
> Michael ‘figures’ gaps
> >>>>> in the notion of BETWEEN.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pursuing my growing edge, going out on a limb
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *From: *Andy Blunden <mailto:ablunden@mira.net 
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> >>>>> *Sent: *April 17, 2017 11:54 PM
> >>>>> *To: *xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Contrasting 'use-value' & 
> 'value'
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Julian/Michael,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I remember getting very excited back in the early 
> '80s when
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I spotted the symmetry between the first chapters of 
> Capital
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and Marx's critique of algebra in his Mathematical
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Manuscripts. That lasted about a week. The symmetry 
> between
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Vygotsky's analysis of speech and Marx's analysis of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> production is a strong one because both take an
> >>>>>
> >>>>> artefact-mediated relation between individuals as 
> the unit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There is a symmetry at the level of the molar unit 
> as well,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> which, so far as I know has been neglected. But this
> >>>>>
> >>>>> structural symmetry cannot usefully be taken too 
> far. The
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "point" is that the unit is a unit of a whole, and the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> productive activity of a community is not the same 
> as its
> >>>>>
> >>>>> language, which as Marx said "the philosophers are 
> bound to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> make into an independent realm." Concretely, 
> speaking is not
> >>>>>
> >>>>> producing. But like all human activities, both are 
> subject
> >>>>>
> >>>>> to analysis by units of artefact-mediated actions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy Blunden
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://home.mira.net/~andy 
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 18/04/2017 7:01 AM, Julian Williams wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>> In principle I am Ok with the idea of the unit that 
> contains the
> >>>>> essential
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> contradictions… but of what?
> >>>>>> For Marx the whole point of commodity 
> exchange/value is that it is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> beginning of an explanation of the 'economy', 
> capitalism, and the
> >>>>> labour
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> theory of value is the key to its collapse …
> >>>>>> What is the equivalent 'point' of sign exchange in 
> dialogue? And
> >>>>> where
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> the equivalent of the theory of value? I think the
> >>>>> sensuous/supersensuous
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> is a distraction from the 'point'.
> >>>>>> That’s my puzzle.
> >>>>>> Julian
> >>>>>> On 17/04/2017 21:49, 
> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth" 
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com 
> <mailto:wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi Julian,
> >>>>>>> the sign is to the verbal exchange what the 
> commodity is to the
> >>>>> commodity
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> exchange--both the sensuous and supersensuous 
> parts are there that
> >>>>> Marx
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Vygotsky are writing about. :-)
> >>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> --------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------
> >>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >>>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science
> >>>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567
> >>>>>>> University of Victoria
> >>>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> >>>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth 
> <http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth><http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >>>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> >>>>>>> 
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-dir
> >>>>> ections-in-mat
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> 
> hematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Julian Williams <
> >>>>>>> julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk 
> <mailto:julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Michael and all
> >>>>>>>> I am coming late to this discussion and maybe 
> have been missing
> >>>>> some
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> important thingsŠ but I want to see a few issues 
> addressed by the
> >>>>>>>> Functor:
> >>>>>>>> Commodity => Sign: my skepticism follows to some 
> extent the
> >>>>> critique I
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote of the mapping 'labor = learning' that you 
> are familiar with:
> >>>>> but
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>> some ways I am even more skeptical of this 
> metaphor. So:
> >>>>>>>> Commodity to sign, is a unit of a totality as in 
> 'economy' to ..
> >>>>> 'Š?
> >>>>> Š '
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> What ? Maybe 'dialogue/discourse'?
> >>>>>>>> What is the 'value' that is exchanged in 
> discourse, and how does it
> >>>>>>>> ultimately realise its 'use value' in some sort 
> of dialogic
> >>>>>>>> 'consumption'
> >>>>>>>> of useful understanding?
> >>>>>>>> How does the producer of value 'labour' to 
> produce it, and how is
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 'labour time' related to the 'exchange value' of 
> the sign that
> >>>>> results?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> [Bearing in mind that the labour theory of value 
> is Marx's
> >>>>> essential
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> contribution.]
> >>>>>>>> Then how does this work relate to devious 
> studies: we already have
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> work of Bourdieu who assigns cultural 
> capital/value to symbolic
> >>>>> power
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the cultural fieldŠ is there a connection here?
> >>>>>>>> Best regards as ever
> >>>>>>>> Julian
> >>>>>>>> Ps I need to come back to you about Hegel (I am 
> far from happy with
> >>>>>>>> reading the 'Ideal' as a straightforward negation 
> of the 'Real'
> >>>>> implicit
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> in what you sayŠ) when I have thought about this 
> a bit more -
> >>>>> maybe in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2018Š we should pick up!  :-)
> >>>>>>>> On 17/04/2017 18:22, 
> "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >>>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth" 
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> >>>>>>>> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com 
> <mailto:wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Larry,
> >>>>>>>>> things become easier to think through if you do 
> not take an
> >>>>>>>> individualist
> >>>>>>>>> starting point but a relational one---not "she 
> has to produce . .
> >>>>> ."
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> look at what is happening in the exchange, where 
> each giving also
> >>>>> is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> taking, such that in a commodity exchange, you 
> have double
> >>>>>>>> giving-taking;
> >>>>>>>>> in a verbal exchange, each speaking also 
> involves listening and
> >>>>>>>> receiving,
> >>>>>>>>> and the receiving is for the purpose of giving 
> (speaking,
> >>>>> replying).
> >>>>> As
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> soon as you do this, you remain with 
> back-and-forth movement, no
> >>>>> longer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> action but transaction.
> >>>>>>>>> The other interesting thing is that the Russian 
> word znachenie,
> >>>>>>>> translated
> >>>>>>>>> as "meaning" (really, signification) also 
> translates as "value"
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "magnitude," and Il'enkov (2009) parenthetically 
> adds "function"
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "rôle". I am quoting from p. 178:
> >>>>>>>>> Marx joins Hegel as regards terminology, and not 
> Kant or Fichte,
> >>>>>>>>> who tried to solve the problem of Œideality¹ 
> (i.e., activity)
> >>>>> while
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> remaining Œinside
> >>>>>>>>> consciousness¹, without venturing into the external
> >>>>>>>> sensuously-perceptible
> >>>>>>>>> corporeal
> >>>>>>>>> world, the world of the palpable-corporeal forms 
> and relations of
> >>>>>>>> things.
> >>>>>>>>>  This Hegelian definition of the term 
> Œideality¹ takes in the
> >>>>> whole
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> range of phenomena
> >>>>>>>>> within which the Œideal¹, understood as the 
> corporeally embodied
> >>>>> form
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> the activity of
> >>>>>>>>> social man, really exists ­ as activity in the 
> form of the thing,
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> conversely, as the thing
> >>>>>>>>> in the form of activity, as a Œmoment¹ of this 
> activity, as its
> >>>>>>>> fleeting
> >>>>>>>>> metamorphoses.
> >>>>>>>>>  Without an understanding of this state of 
> affairs it would be
> >>>>>>>> totally
> >>>>>>>>> impossible to fathom
> >>>>>>>>> the miracles performed by the commodity before 
> people¹s eyes, the
> >>>>>>>>> commodity-form of
> >>>>>>>>> the product, particularly in its dazzling 
> money-form, in the form
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> notorious Œreal
> >>>>>>>>> talers¹, Œreal roubles¹, or Œreal dollars¹, 
> things which, as soon
> >>>>> as
> >>>>> we
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> have the slightest
> >>>>>>>>> theoretical understanding of them, immediately 
> turn out to be not
> >>>>>>>> Œreal¹
> >>>>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>>>> all, but Œideal¹
> >>>>>>>>> through and through, things whose category quite 
> unambiguously
> >>>>> includes
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> words, the
> >>>>>>>>> units of language, and many other Œthings¹. 
> Things that, while
> >>>>> being
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wholly
> >>>>>>>>> Œmaterial¹,
> >>>>>>>>> palpable-corporeal formations, acquire all their 
> Œmeaning¹
> >>>>> (function
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> rôle) from Œspirit¹,
> >>>>>>>> >from Œthought¹ and even owe to it their specific 
> corporeal
> >>>>> existence.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Outside spirit and
> >>>>>>>>> without it there cannot even be words; there is 
> merely a
> >>>>> vibration of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> air.
> >>>>>>>>> Michael
> >>>>>>>>> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> ---------------
> >>>>>>>>> ------
> >>>>>>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> >>>>>>>>> Applied Cognitive Science
> >>>>>>>>> MacLaurin Building A567
> >>>>>>>>> University of Victoria
> >>>>>>>>> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> >>>>>>>>> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth 
> <http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth>
> >>>>> <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> >>>>>>>>> 
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> >>>>>>>> directions-in-mat
> >>>>>>>>> 
> hematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 8:31 AM, 
> <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I am attempting to follow Wolff-Michael¹s 
> trajectory as
> >>>>> presented in
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>>>>> article (A Dialectical Materialist Reading of 
> the Sign). On page
> >>>>> 149
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> he
> >>>>>>>>>> attempts to clarify the difference between sign 
> complex
> >>>>> Œuse-value¹
> >>>>> &
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> sign
> >>>>>>>>>> complex Œvalue¹.
> >>>>>>>>>> His methodology is to read Marx Œsubstituting¹ 
> the word ŒSIGN¹
> >>>>>>>> (implying
> >>>>>>>>>> sign complex) FOR Œcommodity¹ and intuites this 
> method will be
> >>>>>>>>>> generative.
> >>>>>>>>>> Here is his realization through the method of 
> re-reading as
> >>>>> (trading,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> translation, transposition) as I am carried along.
> >>>>>>>>>> a) USE-VALUE: Œnatural signs¹ such as animal 
> footprints are
> >>>>>>>>>> useful/functional to the hunter inherently; 
> they do NOT have
> >>>>> Œvalue¹
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> (exchangeble value) though they do have 
> use-value for the hunter
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> hunting
> >>>>>>>>>> party in finding game.  Similarly a sign 
> complex can be useful
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> product of human labour without being Œvalue¹ 
> (exchangeable).
> >>>>> Someone
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>>> satisfies HER needs through her product 
> produces Œuse-value¹ but
> >>>>> NOT
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Œvalue¹.
> >>>>>>>>>> b) VALUE: (exchangeable). To produce SIGNS 
> (complexes), she has
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> produce
> >>>>>>>>>> not only Œuse-value¹ but use-value FOR others. 
> She has to produce
> >>>>>>>>>> Œsocietal¹ use-values.... To be/come 
> (exchangeable) SIGN, the
> >>>>> product
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> HAS
> >>>>>>>>>> TO BE TRANSFERRED to another, FOR whom the SIGN 
> complex
> >>>>> Œconstitutes¹
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> use-value.
> >>>>>>>>>> The production of signs that produce no Œvalue¹ 
> that is
> >>>>> exchangeable
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> FOR
> >>>>>>>>>> others leads to personal notes often having NO 
> use-value to
> >>>>> others.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To
> >>>>>>>>>> trans/form use-value to BE come Œvalue¹ 
> requires exchangeability
> >>>>>>>> under
> >>>>>>>>>> lighting various forms of SIGN (complexes).
> >>>>>>>>>> Apologies to Wolff-Michael if my echoing his 
> re-reading
> >>>>> methodology
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> garrbled the trans/mission?
> >>>>>>>>>> I offer this because it helps clarify my 
> reading of Œuse-value¹ &
> >>>>>>>>>> Œvalue¹
> >>>>>>>>>> (exchangeable)
> >>>>>>>>>> My morning musement
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >
> >
>
>
>