[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

[Xmca-l] Re: identity expressed or formed by action?



Thank you Martin, Michael and Michael. It seems I was not on the wrong track. I will press the matter further.

Thanks again all,

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 16/02/2017 2:18 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
Andy, I don't think that there is a drive to identity. I think this view is typical of a constructivist mentalist approach. In my view, Marx was closer to the point, and therefore Vygotsky and Leont'ev who use the category of personality rather than identity. Marx/Engels say something pertinent in the German Ideology:

|p. 5| This mode of production must not be considered simply as being the reproduction of the physical existence of the individuals. Rather it is a definite form of activity of these individuals, a definite form of expressing their life, a definite mode of life on their part. *As* individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production, both with what they produce and
― 32 ―
*with how they produce*. *Hence what individuals are depends on the material conditions of their production*.
(This is from vol. 5 of the International Publishers edition)

Michael


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
Applied Cognitive Science
MacLaurin Building A567
University of Victoria
Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>

New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>/*

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Thank you for the reference, Michael, but can't you
    tell me in a sentence or two whether there is any such
    thing as a drive to express one's self-identity in
    activity which is prior to the activity in which
    identity is formed?

    Andy

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Andy Blunden
    http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
    http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
    <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>

    On 16/02/2017 1:46 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:

        Andy,
        I have worked out some of the issues in an article
        available online
        Roth, W.-M. (2009). Identity and community:
        Differences at heart and
        futures-to-come. Éducation et Didactique, 3, 99-118. (
        http://educationdidactique.revues.org/582
        <http://educationdidactique.revues.org/582>)

        where "I present a way to realize the
        Hegel–Marx–Vygotsky–Leont’ev program
        of understanding the subject of activity and,
        correlatively, of
        understanding the (the culture of the) community
        with which individuals
        stand in an irreducible, because mutually
        constitutive relationship"

        Michael

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
        Applied Cognitive Science
        MacLaurin Building A567
        University of Victoria
        Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
        http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth
        <http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth>
        <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/
        <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>>

        New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
        <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/
        <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>>*

        On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:17 AM,
        <lpscholar2@gmail.com
        <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:

            Rob,
            So, in the way ‘she becomes a pollutant as
            waste’ can a person become ‘an
            expressive identity’ as a formation of a
            particular cultural imaginary?

            Not a ‘pollutant’ or ‘an expressive identity’
            to start with, but becoming
            a pollutant or an expressive identity.

            Sent from my Windows 10 phone

            From: R.J.S.Parsons
            Sent: February 15, 2017 3:26 AM
            To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
            Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: identity expressed or
            formed by action?

            The idea of waste leads me to Mary Douglas's
            Purity and Danger. (One of
            the books that made me grow up.) She discusses
            what dirt is - matter out
            of place. Then she discusses all sorts of
            implications. She doesnt'
            discuss the issue of expression vs formation
            as such, but much of what
            she does discuss bears on it. Menstruation
            comes to mind. In some
            societies, women having their periods are
            perceived as dirty, and they
            are seen as untouchable by men. So the way a
            woman is treated forms in
            her the idea that she is a pollutant, or a
            carrier. She was not one to
            start with.

            Rob

            On 15/02/2017 10:21, Laure Kloetzer wrote:

                Dear Andy,

                Interestingly, I had a very similar
                discussion with some colleagues
                recently not on identity but on... waste.
                The perspective of one of our
                students was that investigating what waste
                is can be done via interviews,
                in order to understand how we decide what
                to through away. I was arguing
                that waste is not fully defined before
                action, but that waste is what we
                through away. The action of throwing away
                is formative of what count as
                "waste".
                I thought it might help to step back for
                one second from the tricky
                question of self-identity and considering
                more concrete, everyday
                activities before coming back to it...
                Best
                LK


                2017-02-15 8:30 GMT+01:00 Andy Blunden
                <ablunden@mira.net
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>:

                    I would be interested in any helpful
                    comments (other than suggestions

            for

                    more books to read) from my xmca
                    psychologist friends on this problem.

                    In discussion with a friend, who is
                    very au fait with contemporary

            social

                    philosophy, but knows nothing of CHAT,
                    suggested to me a number of ideas
                    intended to be explanatory (rather
                    than descriptive) of current social

            and

                    political trends. He talks about the
                    rise of "expressive authenticity"
                    since the 1970s and "collective action
                    as a means to express selfhood."

            In

                    response, I questioned whether there
                    is any such thing as a drive to
                    *express* one's identity, and that
                    rather, collective action (and there

            is

                    fundamentally no other kind of action)
                    in pursuit of needs of all kinds
                    (spiritual, social and material) is
                    *formative* of identity.

                    A classic case for analysis is the
                    well-known observation that nowadays
                    people purchase (clothes, cars, food,
                    ...) as a means of expressing

            their

                    identity. I question this, because it
                    presumes that there is the innate
                    drive to express one's identity, which
                    I see no evidence for. I think
                    people adopt dress styles in much the
                    same way that people carry flags

            - to

                    promote a movement they think positive
                    and to gain social acceptance in

            it.

                    Identity-formation is a *result* not a
                    cause of this.

                    So, am I wrong? Is identity formation
                    a result or a cause of activity?

                    Andy


                    --
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    Andy Blunden
                    http://home.mira.net/~andy
                    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
                    http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
                    <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>