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[Xmca-l] Re: Trump's speech and Perezhivanie



Katie Simpson found this interesting page which includes an extended essay by a young fellow explaining why he voted for Trump and excerpts from a subsequent conversation with his teacher:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/donald-trump-2016-election-oklahoma-working-class

Andy


------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 24/01/2017 9:39 PM, Susan Davis wrote:
Hi folks,

I am quite interested in the idea of collecting accounts of
experiences from younger people and those with different views from our
own. It
made me think of a conversation I had with my son over the weekend, and his
response to my sense of frustration.  While Martin
suggests not only talking to family and friends, in terms of ethics and
immediacy they may be easier to approach to begin with ­ especially if they
don¹t hold views similar to our own.  I
therefore include below some of what I recall of our conversation and some
reflections upon it.  I also note with interest his use of the terms
Œironic¹ and Œunironically¹ in terms of his perception of some of the
people he knows who are Trump Œfollowers¹.

J¹s view ­ young adult male (Australian), a Œgamer¹, in his final year of
school ­ interacts online with a global networks of other gamers,
predominantly male

³Your generation of social justice warriors don¹t get it. A
lot of young people are sick of all the concern over the so-called
Œdisadvantaged¹ people and sick of the political correctness. They think
anyone
could be disadvantaged depending on how you twist it, there can never be
equality for all.
While as an individual I find him detestable I know people
who follow him unironically as well as ironically.²

Q: What do you mean follow him ironically?

³They are people who just follow him because they want to
see what happens, they think it¹s funny.²

Q: So are you saying they are just after the spectacle?

³It¹s like following the WWE (wrestling) people love it,
they love the characters, but it¹s not serious. Some people follow him in
that
kind of way. He¹s a larger than life character. He creates chaos around
him and
they like to watch that.²

Q: And what about the people you say are following him
unironically, what do you mean?

³They¹re people who like the fact he is unapologetic and
totally non-PC, so he¹s saying the things a lot of people think but could
never
get away with saying.  His political and
economic ideas might be rubbish, but they like the fact he¹s saying Œup
yours¹
to the system.  Even though in the end he
has to work through that system to get anything done.²

Some of my reflections Š.
This identification of the significance of a form of
Engagement (and perhaps lived Œemotional experience) that may appear to be
flippant or shallow even, brought to mind
Bakhtin¹s discussion of carnival ­ something I drew upon in my Masters
work when
attempting to understand some of the interactions involving young people on
theInternet.

In searching for some means of trying to understand this fascination with
the
humorous, the grotesque and the profane being circulated on the Internet
Bakhtin¹s work on ³folk humour and carnival
laughter² seems to offer some parallels and insights.  Bakhtin¹s study
explored the work of French
writer Francois Rabelais (c.1494-1553) and the role of folk humour during
the
Middle Ages and the Renaissance.  What
Bakhtin identified was that while historically the Œauthoritarian word¹ of
the
official realm (involving the church and recorded politics of the day) is
generally that which is studied and explored, that there was a
complementary
and unofficial realm that existed alongside the official realm and that
this
culture, rooted in folk humour, laughter and carnival has been largely
ignored
and rarely studied:

³A
boundless world of humour forms and manifestations opposed the official and
serious tone of medieval ecclesiastical and feudal culture.  In spite of
their variety, folk festivities
of the carnival type, the comic rites and cults, the clowns and fools,
giants,
dwarfs, and jugglers, the vast and manifold literature of parody ­ all
these
forms have one style in common:  they
belong to one culture of folk carnival humour². (Bakhtin in Morris, 1994:
196)

Perhaps it
is the case that the Internet and now the political sphere is the current
space
for the experience of carnival, in Bakhtin¹s discussion this was often
outside
the official realm, but now the distinctions seem to have disintegrated.
What
is of intriguing now is that through Trump many features of carnival have
been
drawn into what would historically be considered Œthe official realm¹. He
adopts the persona, the language, the acts more characteristic of
carnival,  introducing features of abuse,
the grotesque and profanities not generally associated with the
authoriatative
order. He is certainly creating a spectacle that many people find deeply
engaging (though not necessarily necessarily hopeful or profound) some
find the spectacle deeply
offensive but can¹t help watching, while other are quite enjoying the
disruption
and entertainment!


(Sorry if the formatting of this is bit strange - I typed it elsewhere
first)!

I look forward to others thoughts and accounts.

Sue.


On 24/01/2017 5:27 pm, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
Alfredo Jornet Gil" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
a.j.gil@iped.uio.no> wrote:

Another article exploring Trump's age:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2017/01/20/inenglish/1484911522_528712.html?rel=c
x_articulo#cxrecs_s

Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
Sent: 24 January 2017 08:03
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trump's speech and Perezhivanie

That would be interesting to explore, Mike. You suggest actually asking
how people from different ages and demographics and share it here? That
sounds doable!
Alfredo
________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
Sent: 24 January 2017 00:54
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trump's speech and Perezhivanie

Martin's caution relates to my suggestion that we not restrict the same to
our families or students and friends. People experienced the Trump victory
in different ways. The example from LSV involves kids of three ages.  That
still seems an important focus. Our contemporaries are in there 30's +
(and
++). Our students are in latest teens or 20+. High school kids are in the
teens. Middle school kids.....

It is my strong impression that there are significant age differences in
ones experience of the event that could be elicited pretty easily and
compared in the group across other interesting categories of difference
such as nationality.

A small, positive, collective effort?

mike

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

Dear Martin,

thanks for the nuances you introduce. Yes, I agree with you, it is
totally
sensible to hear Trump's words with hope and actually experience
(perezhivat) them in such a way as to become moving force towards
transformation. I was only approaching the speech from a developmental
stages perspective, where, to hear the speech with contempt  given the
speech's formal structure as a type of generalisation, would mean to
hear
them within that stage that Andy very appropriately (in my view) called
as
"magic". Vygotsky (I think) also used this term to refer to a stage in
child development.

But I do not wish to say that contempt is the only possible quality, and
so, as you very nicely remark, hope, enthusiasm, empowerment, all these
and
their developmental and historical conditions should be considered as
possibilities of hearing Trump's speech.

Thanks a lot for the resources/links, I am incorporating them to our
joint
document.
Alfredo

________________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
on behalf of Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
Sent: 22 January 2017 16:08
To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Trump's speech and Perezhivanie

Hi Alfredo.

I think your proposal is very interesting; that we could explore two
different ways of hearing and understanding Trump¹s words. But if I
understand you correctly, I don¹t agree that ³in the first case, there
is
no hope for change, there is contempt.²  I have lived in Michigan and
Pennsylvania, and in both states industries that were central to the
economic rise of the working class, auto manufacturing and steel
foundries,
collapsed as a result of globalization. I have seen first hand some of
the
communities that were almost completely destroyed. I believe that people
who experienced these changes do hear Trump¹s words with hope for
change,
and if they have contempt it is for professional politicians who they
feel
speak but do not act.

But perhaps you mean it was a lack of hope that *led* people to Trump:

<http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/
donald-trump-manufacturing-jobs-hope/496541/>

The New Yorker has published several articles by George Packer (no
relation) on the appeal that Trump has to the white working class. For
example:

<http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/16/how-
donald-trump-appeals-to-the-white-working-class>

Martin





On Jan 21, 2017, at 3:44 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
<mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>> wrote:

Dear Helena, Andy, all,


Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the time to watch the movie
Fate of a Man, but I have followed the very interesting analyses and
conversations about it. I am opening this thread as connexions between
those analyses, perezhivanie, and current tragic social and political
situation in the US and elsewhere. This also connects with the article
that
Mike shared on the position of the Learning Sciences with regard to this
situation (how happy I was to see this initiative!).


In particular, I wanted to pick up on Helena's very true comment that
"the
US is going to have to produce some works of scholarship or art, or
both,
that attempt to explain what is happening now here in the US -- for
example, this afternoon, under President Trump."


Yesterday, we saw at home Trump's speech. Although we had followed
Trump's
campaign and its denigrating tenor, it was yesterday, for the first
time,
that my wife and me got this gut feeling of true tragedy, of a real
*drama*
as we heard those empty, but to recover the prior article for
discussion,
hollowed and hollowing words coming out of that mouth. It came upon us
that
there may be lots of people for whom those words are not hollowed, but
actually encouraging, rich, beautiful. How can you hear that as beauty?


So, I was wondering, and in following up with our 2016 MCA Issue 4
discussion,  whether we could not actually conduct an analysis of the
sort
Marc offers in his article of the perezhivanie. Just as Vygotsky
explains
how 3 different children experience the situation of an alcoholic mother
differently, could not we perform an analysis ?of that perezhivanie in
which a person experiences yesterday's situation as one of
encouragement,
of freedom and hope. Would that not be a way to try to understand what
is
going on? This would not be a piece of art, but could be something we
could
do to try to understand and change this situation.

We could then contrast that perezhivanie with the one many of as have,
in
which the situation is experience as a real TRAGEDY. I think in the
first
case, there is no hope for change, there is contempt; in the second,
hearing those words as hollowed and hollowing require that you live the
situation as a doubled situation in which you experienced it from a very
different developmental stage. One in which the speech sounds as a case
of
involution.

Should we find the transcribed speech and perform such analysis?


Going now to support the Woman's march here in Victoria BC.

Alfredo