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[Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed



Here is Galina's reply to the discussion before David's, Huw's and Larry's
notes. I do not vouch for a couple of parts of the translation. Its the
best that I could manage. The quotation from Buber in particular is just
back translation.

Happy winter Soltice, Galina!

mike
.........................
You raise immediately a lot of important issues, each of which requires
unhurried reflection. Let me start with my favorite issues --- the idea in
normal development no age period ceases to exist. This is not my idea, I
received it as a gift from the great Erik Erikson, who wrote that no age
crisis should be resolved definitively, that the problem of each crisis,
the main choice at every age -- is [really] the work of a lifetime, and it
is this work helps any normally developing person to continue his/her own
movements himself, the search for oneself. [Not sure or translation here! -
MC

Yes, Mike, of course «What does an" independent "human organism possibly
mean when any state of independence is really a state of" suppressed
"INTER-dependencies. <...> Is not independence just what, in context, we
attribute to particular forms of interdependence? We are always dealing
with relations, most proximally relations between human beings and between
human beings interacting as part of their local ecology.

However, this understanding of oneself as a being woven from human
relations, co-created in these relations and creatomg these very relations
is complicated by the creative idea of the uniqueness and intrinsic value
of the human "I" that is, to my taste, was best expressed by Martin Buber:

Rabbi Zusya, before his death said: "In the world to come will they ask me,
why didnt you become Moses? Will they ask me, ' why you were not Zeus'?"

The same idea was expressed by Buber greater detail, but vaguely:
 "Each of us has to follow their own path, to open something that belongs
only to him, to do what no one before him did not commit. Each person
brings to the world something new, something unique and unprecedented.
Everyone in Israel must know and remember that he is the only one of its
kind, because he has no equal in the world. After all, if not so, and I
would have been here exactly the kind of person you would not need it in
the world, and therefore he would not be born here at this time. This
unique one has to bring to perfection. For as long as there is this, and
postponed the coming of the Messiah ... (Martin Buber. Human Path)

So, we are again confronted with the contradictions of the relations of
together and and individually. But now I'm not talking about the beginning
point, the birth of human ability, but of the directions of this
development. And with this turn of thought proper scientific perspective
merges with the deeply personal, existential. As in Alfredo's meditation:
«The power of being mindful to the irreducibly unity of the inter- and the
intra- at every step is that, when I approach an other, I may wonder not
how can I change (teach?) Her or him, but how can I change US. This may
seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically; there is (reflective!)
work to be done. »


Congratulations to all on today's holiday - the winter solstice: the planet
has turned back to the light!

With thanks,
Galina

On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 9:19 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike, Huw, Galina,
> The schematization i developed was by following Galina’s reasoning of the
> meaning of (independence).
> Mike, your focus on the SUPPRESSION of the actuality of inter-dependence
> in all notions of (independence) as background context seems to lie at the
> heart of Galina’s article. In my reading her article i imagine her
> RE-treiving this essential truth that (independence) is actually
> suppressing the truth of OUR inter-dependence. (intermental).
>
> This inter-dependence includes the proximal events (microgenesis) and also
> i  read the article as endorsing the inter-dependence of the four lines of
> development that interweave within ENDURING relationships that she calls
> (merging) but i prefer the term (overlapping) relations. Overlapping lines
> of development indicate all four lines remain distinct needs or desires in
> ongoing social situations of development. Galina’s article articulates the
> careful approach required to honour all four distinct inter-dependent lines
> of development.There seems to be a back and forth movement, an ongoing
> RE-TREIVAL in the sense of the mobius strip. Now different theories/models
> seem to emphasize or prioritize one or the other lines of development as
> being  central as a person (independently) is enlisting learning
> collaboration (communication/joint action/ forms of interaction).
> Developing the ability to learn as a subject of learning can be elaborated
> within each distinct line of development that together -interdependently –
> overlap. As Galina emphasizes the development of *trust* as
> inter-dependence requires honouring all four lines of development as they
> *emerge* in our ongoing relations.
>
> Shifting focus to Huw’s addition, introduces another aspect -the priority
> of the image- to this overlapping ontogenetic inter-depence playing out in
> our microgenetic proximal relations. The dialogues are *about* the image
> (as prior).
>
> By staying in the slow lane i am bracketing or suppressing the fourth line
> of development in order to light up the three previous developing lines
> that the child carries into the classroom on the 1st day of school. If we
> move too quickly to the fourth line of development we may suppress the
> vitality and aliveness of the other 3 lines of development. When this
> happens it becomes necessary to RE -trieve what has been suppressed
> (withdrawn).
> The image of the crab manor mobius strip is an image of back and forth
> RE-trieval and re-suming (lighting up) kinds of independent learning
> development in place prior to arrival on the 1st day of school.
> Establishing this actuality is the gift and message that Galina’s article
> articulates and lays out clearly for her readers to understand (grounding).
>
> Moving slowly, back and forth, musically. Merleau-ponty’s image is the
> mobius strip (singing) the world. Re-turning, re-trieving, re-suming, are
> images played out in Galina’s exploration of learning the ability to learn
> as a fourth line of development which requires and makes place (honours)
> the inter-dependence of the three previous developing lines of development.
>
> Galina mentions that when we collapse or suppress the prior three lines of
> development in schooling situations, emphasizing  just reading, writing,
> content subjects and the fourth line of development we generate (school
> neurosis).
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: Huw Lloyd
> Sent: December 20, 2016 8:17 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Cc: Galina Zuckerman
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Zukerman resumed
>
> An appropriate remark here, perhaps, is that the use of language and the
> logical mode of expression may all be beneficially bracketed.
>  "Independent" is valid and useful in the context of a distinction made
> using formal logic applied to appearances. Yet it is less appropriate when
> construing phenomena genetically (because 'independent' in this sense
> merely locates where certain aspects of historically distributed situated
> activity are housed).  But when I assert that "Galina's student dialogues
> are special kinds of dialogues different to that of conventional
> understandings of classroom dialogue", I am making a hierarchical
> (specialisation) distinction (due to the additional constraints) using
> formal logic about a platform that is considered as a key contribution
> towards a genetically conceived mode of collaboration and development. In
> other words, I use formal logic to point out aspects of genetic logic.
>
> I say that language may be bracketed too because an important raw material
> of interest is the image that stems from the orientation to problems (which
> the dialogues are about) -- effectively the same sort of thing (but more
> complex) that arises as an after-image from looking at a bright light. I
> suspect this may be a problem for linguaphiles, because they may have
> acquired a predilection for jumping on any unclothed thought (image) and
> dressing it up in words prior to admitting it to consciousness.  A key
> point of real problem-oriented activity is the disciplining, organising,
> and attendance to this image formation and its gentle coaxing (imagination)
> which is structured by a genuine encounter with a problem and not merely a
> verbalised problem. In more mature forms imagination can take on the
> structure of a relational space that is navigated.  Without this
> discipline, all one can really do is associate, "oh, this reminds of x" etc
> or fashion things upon the basis of attributes, in which there is little
> distinction between unicorns and rhinos.
>
> To access this imagination all one really needs to do is to contemplate a
> complex (multi-dimensional) action -- one which requires weighing up,
> balancing or finding a way through. The dialogue and its special rules help
> to magnify that process and make it available for reflection.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
> On 20 December 2016 at 17:38, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > Nicely said, Henry.
> >
> > As schematized in your note, Larry, the use of the word, "independent"
> > struck me rather forcefully.
> >
> > What does an "independent" human organism possibly mean when any state of
> > independence is really a state of "suppressed" INTER-dependencies. No
> > (wo)man is an island is literally true. Or non-existence.
> >
> > Isn't independence just what, in context, we attribute to particular
> forms
> > of interdependence?  We are always dealing with relations, most
> proximally
> > relations between human beings and between human beings interacting as
> part
> > of their local ecology.
> >
> > Anyway, the notion of independent seems to need bracketing.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 2:04 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Check this out:
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA <https://www.youtube.com/
> > > watch?v=FmqLFZISvfA>
> > >
> > > This mobius metaphor came up some time ago on the chat. Most of us,
> > myself
> > > included, wouldn’t have heard and visualized Bach’s Crab Cannon as a
> > mobius
> > > strip, but it sure works as music. In the same way discourse wouldn’t
> be
> > > (consciously) heard that way either. Yet every dialog “looks" both
> > forward
> > > and backward at every moment, reprising/elaborating on previous turns,
> > > anticipating future turns.
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 12:42 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Oh, I am so glad that this conversation is going on! Thanks Larry for
> > > your sustained effort to keep it going, to Mike for bringing the author
> > in,
> > > and to professor Zuckerman for being so generous to join us.
> > > >
> > > > For those of you who, like me, had to go and do a search to see what
> a
> > > Mobius Strip was, see an illustration in this youtube video:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVsIAa2XNKc
> > > >
> > > > I really liked the analogy, because any single action on the strip
> has
> > > effects that manifest distinctly, yet as a unity, in each side of the
> > > strip, which very nicely illustrates how one single fact (that of
> social
> > > life) manifests both, and yet inherently united within a
> self-developing
> > > whole, as the individual and as the social.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to add two articles by F. T. Mikhailov, who writes
> > > about inter-intrasubjectivity, and speaks of purposively volitional
> > action
> > > and freedom (which I think is, at the end of the day, the heart of the
> > > reflection that professor Zuckerman's chapter speaks about) as "a
> single
> > > intra- and intersubjective affect of humane co-being." Mikhailov's
> > approach
> > > in these papers is much less empirical, yet I think adds value and a
> > > beautifully inspiring lenses to approach not only the empirical
> questions
> > > that raise in our research, when we try to theorise and provide answers
> > to
> > > general questions on [teaching-learning] and development, but also to
> our
> > > everyday being together with others, with my children and partner at
> > home,
> > > with other teachers and children at the elementary school where I am
> > > working, etc... I think the power of being mindful to the irreducibly
> > unity
> > > of the inter- and the intra- at every step is that, when I approach an
> > > other, I may wonder not how can I change (teach?) her or him, but how
> > can I
> > > change US. This may seem obvious, yet it does not come automatically;
> > there
> > > is (reflective!) work to be done.
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > Sent: 19 December 2016 17:48
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Cc: Galina Zuckerman
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l]  Fwd:  Zukerman resumed
> > > >
> > > > Dear Colleagues-- Here is a response to Larry's note of a few days
> ago
> > > from
> > > > Galina Zuckerman. I will send along a copy of the Gordon's paper.
> > > Original
> > > > message below.
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > > ----------------
> > > > I am extremely grateful to you and your colleagues for talking about
> > > > interpsychic action. This is a difficult conversation, so let us move
> > > > slowly. Today, I will answer only one fragment of the note from that
> > > > wonderful co-conversationalist (I do not dare call him simply by the
> > name
> > > > of Larry - it's too familiar for Russian-speaking people).
> > > >
> > > > "The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems
> > to
> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
> > > > interiorized mental activity."
> > > >
> > > > Yes! Yes!!! However, is there any sense in raising the question of
> what
> > > is
> > > > more important - interpsychic or intra-psychic? What's more important
> > for
> > > > walking - movement of the left or right foot? Those cultural means
> > which
> > > I
> > > > have already mastered are the primary conditions to enter the new
> > > > interpsychic space that was closed to me before I have mastered a new
> > > > cultural means...
> > > >
> > > > Also, there is no point in the question of what comes first -
> > > interpsychic
> > > > or intrapsychic. In order to join the interpsychic action to meet a
> > > > partner, I should have some margin of autonomy, initiative ...
> > > >
> > > > The Mobius strip is the best symbol of the relationship of INTER and
> > > INTRA
> > > > in the development process, in which there is always a moment of
> > > > SELF-development.
> > > >
> > > > I'm afraid to say more because I have not read neither the latest
> work
> > of
> > > > Gordon Wells' work, nor his work "The complimentary contributions of
> > > > Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994."
> If
> > > you
> > > > can send me a text, please do !!! I owe so much to this talented
> > author;
> > > > His book Dialogic inquiry opened for me new ways of research.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Galina Zuckerman <galina.zuckerman@gmail.com>
> > > > Date: 2016-12-19 4:55 GMT-08:00
> > > > Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
> > > > To: mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Дорогой Майк!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Я чрезвычайно благодарна Вам и Вашим коллегам за разговор об
> > > > интерпсихическом действии. Это трудный разговор, поэтому давайте
> > > двигаться
> > > > неторопливо. Сегодня я отвечу лишь на одну реплику замечательного
> > > > собеседника (не решаюсь называть его просто по имени Larry – для
> > > > русскоязычного человека это слишком фамильярно).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
> > > > actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and seems
> > to
> > > > put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
> > > > interiorized mental activity.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Да! Да!!! Однако есть ли смысл в постановке вопроса о том, что
> важнее –
> > > > интерпсихическое или интрапсихическое? Что важнее для ходьбы –
> движение
> > > > левой или правой ноги? Те культурные средства, которые я уже освоила,
> > > это в
> > > > первую очередь условие вступить в новое интерпсихическое
> пространство,
> > > > которое было для меня закрыто до того, как я освоила новое культурное
> > > > средство…
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Также нет смысла в вопросе о том, что первично - интерпсихическое или
> > > > интрапсихическое. Для того чтобы присоединиться к интерпсихическому
> > > > действию, чтобы встретиться с партнером, я должна обладать каким-то
> > > запасом
> > > > самостоятельности, инициативности…
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Лента Мёбиуса – лучший символ отношения ИНТЕР и ИНТРА в процессе
> > > развития,
> > > > в котором всегда присутствует момент САМОразвития.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Боюсь двигаться дальше, так как не читала ни последних работ Гордона
> > > > Уэллса, ни его работу The complimentary contributions of Halliday and
> > > > Vygotsky to a Language Based Theory of Learning, 1994. Если можно,
> > > пришлите
> > > > мне текст, пожалуйста!!! Я очень многим обязана этому талантливому
> > > автору;
> > > > его книга *Dialogic* *inquiry* открыла для меня новые пути
> > исследования.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Не знаю, упрощу или усложню дальнейшее обсуждение, но не могу не
> > > сослаться
> > > > на новую работу Бориса Эльконина (см. приложение).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Всего самого-самого доброго!
> > > >
> > > > Галя Цукерман
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 10:48 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Dear Galina -- This is a serious response to your work and it would
> be
> > > >> great if you could find time to respond, at least the first part
> where
> > > Larry
> > > >> tries to summarize your view of the intermental. He is trying to be
> > > >> helpful and build on what people are writing, and some help from you
> > > would
> > > >> move the whole discussion along. We will worry about translation at
> > this
> > > >> end......
> > > >>
> > > >> Bud' zdorova
> > > >>
> > > >> mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> mike
> > > >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > >> From: <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > >> Date: Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM
> > > >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Zukerman resumed
> > > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> The notion of intermental processes as occurring between persons
> > > >> actualizes an ongoing focus on what occurs between persons, and
> seems
> > to
> > > >> put in question the priority of internalized mastery of one’s own
> > > >> interiorized mental activity. Am i misreading this emphasis in the
> > > article.
> > > >>
> > > >> Is this understanding of (intermental) that prioritizes dialogical
> > > >> activity with the other a different focus than the emphasis that
> > Gordon
> > > >> Wells puts on the dual aspects of the language system as BOTH
> > > >> *a mediation of social activity by enabling participants to plan and
> > > >> coordinate and review their actions through EXTERNAL speech
> > > >>
> > > >> AND in addition language as
> > > >> *a medium in which those  above activities are SYMBOLICALLY
> > REPRESENTED,
> > > >> providing the psychological sign/tool that mediates the associated
> > ideal
> > > >> mental activities in the internal discourse of inner speech.
> > > >>
> > > >> This shift or crossing over from priority given to the actual
> physical
> > > >> discourse using language (the tool of tools -metatool) to priority
> > > given to
> > > >> the SYMBOLICALLY represented realm seems to be a key or hinge moment
> > > within
> > > >> the dual nature of language as both external and interior.
> > > >>
> > > >> Reading the Zukerman article and the focus on the (intermental) all
> > the
> > > >> way down seems to put a different slant or incline to what Gordon
> > Wells
> > > is
> > > >> exploring.
> > > >> My turn is up, but i could reference examples from the Zukerman
> > article
> > > on
> > > >> the priority of the (intermental)
> > > >>
> > > >> For those interested i could send another article by Gordon Wells
> (The
> > > >> complimentary contributions of Halliday and Vygotsky to a Language
> > Based
> > > >> Theory of Learning, 1994)
> > > >> Loose threads being picked up
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > <Mikhailov 2004 Object Oriented Activity Whose.pdf><Mikhailov 2006
> > > Problems of the Method of Cultural Historical Psychology.pdf>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>