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[Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started



Mike,
Is it possible to reverse the order of your question and to imagine this 40 year old teacher who as a member of a particular public school is presented with an already existing model of organized schooling [along the lines of the Finnish nursing model].  The school personnel then have the option to also follow this model where the teachers have no hierarchical leadership.  This would mean the teachers together must take the curriculum [their object in the same way the nurses take as their object a mandate to offer community health care] and decide how to teach fractions. No guarantee that the non-hierarchically organized school would not continue teaching fractions the same old way, but they as teachers would be able to decide to teach in an alternative way. For example they could decide to ask Molly Shea to give inservice to their learning collaborative [and have the freedom to decide this on their own. This recognizes the state as still supplying the funding as distributing the curriculum, [fractions] but I can imagine the question being generated why teaching fractions to our school community is not working as intended.  
The key shift in organizational structure of community health at the neighbourhood level began in one model instance. No other neighbourhood health team was compelled to enact this non-hierarchical model, but they had the option to follow this model. What is significant is that this model has become the dominant taken for granted way of offering community health care and each patient now sees only two nurses. 

So... the premise that I am starting from is that the state grants the possibility for a school to elect to operate in this way. That 40 year old teacher would have elected to be a member of this alternative structure, opening the possibility [the not yet but could be] potential of a true learning collaborative that decides how to implement the curriculum. 
At this point a huge leap of imagination, but we do have a living example in the re-organization of one country’s community health teams

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: mike cole
Sent: December 4, 2016 1:11 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Cc: Noah Finkelstein
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started

Thanks for forwarding the paper and the additional comments, Molly.
The more concrete examples we have to work with, including their
pre-histories and later fates, the better for understanding how to connect
our theories with concrete instantiations. Working simultaneously at
different "levels" of the sociopoliticalculturaleconomic system in which
our model activities are embedded seems an inescapable methodological
requirement. A tall order. Noah Finkelstein's work appears to be taking on
that tall task.

Larry -- How would you imagine the Finnish nursing care model would be
reconfigured if the object of activity were learning to divide fractions
and the participants were a bunch of 9-10 year olds and a forty year old
teacher in a classroom where the seats are bolted down and keeping order is
THE over-riding requirement?







mike

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:26 PM, molly shea <mvshea@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> Thanks for the email. I think the Margaret and Carrie's paper did a great
> job of defining and describing the fall out of neoliberal schooling
> conditions. The study found "so-called “high-achieving” students
> learning-to-the-tests (i.e., to make high grades) and struggling to
> maintain “good student” identities based in compliant behavior and mundane
> activities." The mundane activities is the part that seems so pernicious.
> You can almost image being in the interviews with some of the brightest
> women and men asking "why are we here? what is the point?". The wonder of
> math and science become narrowly focused on future oriented achievement and
> future oriented identities that suggest someday this stuff won't be so
> mundane.
>
> However I think some alternative sites of learning math and science sustain
> themselves on 1) a better understanding of the history and the people that
> constructed and construct the discipline; 2) a better sense of wonderment
> (Heidegger) about the possibilities to be surprised, confused, and curious
> about how and why the world has become the multiple things that it is or
> seems to be; and 3) institutional support that can see a shared value with
> these alternative paths. Your Fifth Dimension is an example of taking up a
> kind of ambiguity and curiosity and unsettled ideas (Medin and Bang discuss
> this in detail on their own terms). Carrie and Margaret's paper does a nice
> job of describing the absence of that wonderment or curiosity. Something
> they suggest the institutionalized neoliberal education for working class
> kids has all but left behind for a march towards progress through test
> scores and the improvements of economic security for those who possess
> merit in the schooling system. Private schools seem to be a refuge for the
> wealthy. Susan Jurow and I discuss how those who want to institutionalize
> alternatives must consider the reorganizing of scales to consider how other
> forms of becoming can emerge--forms that work towards equity. I am not sure
> there are many answers in this quick email, but it is something I am very
> interested in understanding and would love to hear other's thoughts.
>
> Thanks,
> Molly
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 11:14 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > Hi Molly --
> >
> > The messages have comes frequently and complexly I missed a real response
> > to
> > your call to examine the positive models provided by Megan that stretched
> > from classroom to community groups and look for all the world like great
> > science education. A positive alternative.
> >
> > Phillip mentioned a school he work for 15 years that appeared, from the
> > brief description, to embody the kinds of principles being invoked here
> as
> > an alternative to the neo-liberal model of education-as-commodity. I am
> > wondering, Phillip, if there is any description of the conditions that
> made
> > the creation of an alternative educational practice in a
> > command-and-control political economy possible? What conditions sustained
> > them?
> >
> > I would add the Salt Lake City school written about by Barbara Rogoff and
> > colleagues as an institutionalized alternative.
> >
> > I also think the lines of research that Carrie (I believe) referred to as
> > models are important but I am always curious about the infrastructure
> that
> > enables those models to happen in in the first place and the process of
> > repair/renewal/keeping on keeping on. This is the line that my colleagues
> > and followed in the FifthDimension and subsequent projects.  Here there
> > appear to be a number of candidates.
> >
> > I guess this is a question about the social ecology of an alternative
> form
> > of education that embodies the values that go along with a
> > socio-cultural-historical-activity sort a theory. This interest goes
> along
> > with Phillip's earlier comment
> >
> > as Smagorinsky pointed out in his paper regarding development of learning
> > and
> >
> > soocial practices, at core there is always an ideology.
> >
> > here in the states it is neoliberal capitalism.
> >
> > in russia it was communism, and now Putinism.
> >
> > both carry a high value of conformity, nationalism, and compliance to
> > authority.
> >
> >
> > So the question becomes, i think, is how are we to understand local
> > sociocultural ecologies that permit us to carry out the kind of education
> > we think maximizes the kind of values that organize our image of our
> > children's future worlds.
> >
> > Galina faced that problem under soviet rule and under oligarchic
> > capitalism, we face it under Trumpism. The folks in Singapore live it.
> >
> > In short: Under what conditions is it possible to institutionalize
> > alternatives?
> >
> > mike
> > (Apologies for font messups)
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Molly
> > >
> > >      This does look like an excellent book. I was just looking at her
> > > article and missed this.
> > >
> > > Many thanks!!
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > > On Dec 2, 2016, at  6:11 PM, molly shea <mvshea@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > Megan Bang and Doug Medin wrote an excellent book on Science
> Education:
> > > > https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/whos-asking
> > > >
> > > > *Overview*
> > > > The answers to scientific questions depend on who’s asking, because
> the
> > > > questions asked and the answers sought reflect the cultural values
> and
> > > > orientations of the questioner. These values and orientations are
> most
> > > > often those of Western science. In Who’s Asking?, Douglas Medin and
> > Megan
> > > > Bang argue that despite the widely held view that science is
> objective,
> > > > value-neutral, and acultural, scientists do not shed their cultures
> at
> > > the
> > > > laboratory or classroom door; their practices reflect their values,
> > > belief
> > > > systems, and worldviews. Medin and Bang argue further that scientist
> > > > diversity—the participation of researchers and educators with
> different
> > > > cultural orientations—provides new perspectives and leads to more
> > > effective
> > > > science and better science education.
> > > >
> > > > Medin and Bang compare Native American and European American
> > orientations
> > > > toward the natural world and apply these findings to science
> education.
> > > The
> > > > European American model, they find, sees humans as separated from
> > nature;
> > > > the Native American model sees humans as part of a natural ecosystem.
> > > Medin
> > > > and Bang then report on the development of ecologically oriented and
> > > > community-based science education programs on the Menominee
> reservation
> > > in
> > > > Wisconsin and at the American Indian Center of Chicago. Medin and
> > Bang’s
> > > > novel argument for scientist diversity also has important
> implications
> > > for
> > > > questions of minority underrepresentation in science.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Molly Shea
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Carrie
> > > >>
> > > >>      My read of Barton’s publications is that she is using the Maker
> > > >> movement as a platform as regards issues of equity and science taken
> > > >> broadly. Is this a fair read or are there other important factors I
> am
> > > >> missing??
> > > >>
> > > >>     My read of a nice paper published by Jessica Thompson and others
> > in
> > > >> TCR is that she sees what she terms as 'rigor and responsiveness’ as
> > the
> > > >> key element. In my words - not hers - key is respect for the
> > discipline
> > > >> (rigor) and key is respect for each other (responsiveness). Is this
> a
> > > fair
> > > >> read or are there other important factors I am missing?
> > > >>
> > > >>     Megan Bang seems less in the the science/math loop although she
> > just
> > > >> may not have published much in this area. I did see one paper that,
> > one
> > > >> might say, addressed what some would term ethnomathematics.
> > > >>
> > > >> However, I see nothing in the work of these researchers in the
> > > discipline
> > > >> of mathematics per se. Perhaps you could point me in the right
> > > direction?
> > > >>
> > > >> Here is why I’m asking. Just assume that I am a dumb mathematics
> > > educator
> > > >> (which I am - smile) and I wish to help those I teach (which I do) -
> > > i.e.
> > > >> those who will be elementary and secondary mathematics teachers - in
> > > >> somehow implementing something like rigor and responsiveness.’ I do
> > > >> understand that curriculum and teaching are intertwined, but I also
> > know
> > > >> that teachers enact curriculum and may or may not choose make room
> for
> > > >> responsiveness (that was also a point in the Thompson article). Now
> it
> > > is
> > > >> possible that all my students will, on their own and in their own
> > > >> classrooms, develop substantial notions of rigor and responsiveness,
> > > but it
> > > >> is possible that some might struggle. What experiences might I and
> > > others
> > > >> design to help those that struggle; for instance, what constitutes
> > rigor
> > > >> (one can certainly be under or over rigorous). Likewise, what
> > > constitutes
> > > >> responsiveness (one certainly doesn’t need to talk to be
> responsive).
> > > Often
> > > >> people such as I do have relations with those, say, in mathematics,
> > > child
> > > >> development, and educational philosophy (among others). But, perhaps
> > you
> > > >> don’t see this as happening in the college classroom, but during
> > > teaching
> > > >> itself. This still raises the interesting question as to what should
> > > occur
> > > >> in the college classroom (although some would just abolish such
> > > classrooms,
> > > >> perhaps understandably). Maybe it is too soon to ask such a
> question,
> > > but
> > > >> until it is answered in some pragmatic fashion, dumb mathematics
> > > educators
> > > >> such as myself will continue muddle to the benefit of none and,
> > perhaps,
> > > >> detriment of all.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ed Wall
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Dec 1, 2016, at  3:19 PM, carrie.allen@sri.com wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sorry to be joining this strand late, but I wanted to jump in
> > regarding
> > > >> other possibilities or models of learning in mathematics and
> science.
> > > >> First, I want to say that our comments in this paper were not trying
> > to
> > > >> suggest that students in US schools are all doomed to have hollow
> > ideas
> > > >> about math and science and fragile identities because of it. There
> are
> > > >> certainly many current models - such as in Angie Calabrese Barton’s
> > > work at
> > > >> Michigan State University and Jessica Thompson’s and Megan Bang’s
> work
> > > at
> > > >> the University of Washington that disrupt the neoliberal model and
> > > >> normalized conceptions of math and science, and that engage young
> > > people in
> > > >> the practices of the disciplines in meaningful and authentic ways.
> > Math
> > > and
> > > >> science in these models are frameworks for engaging in and making
> > sense
> > > of
> > > >> the world, and students in these models are positioned as those who
> > > utilize
> > > >> the resources and tools within these frameworks to pursue problems,
> > > >> questions, interests. Youth in these models live into more nuanced
> > ways
> > > of
> > > >> being mathematical or scientific, and have more sophisticated means
> by
> > > >> which to imagine possible selves (and pathways). And, I’m not
> entirely
> > > sure
> > > >> how to articulate it, but, in these models math and science too are
> > > >> “living” – being shaped in use and expanded in its possibilities.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>>
> > > >>> CARRIE D. ALLEN, Ph.D.
> > > >>> STEM Researcher
> > > >>> SRI International
> > > >>> Center for Technology in Learning
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> (650) 859-5262
> > > >>> Twitter: @CarrieDAllen2
> > > >>> Skype: carrie.allen_9
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 11/17/16, 7:16 PM, "xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf
> of
> > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com" <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu on behalf of
> > > >> lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   So basically engaging in play may be foundational to learning a
> > > >> particular disciplinary subject matter including mathematical play.
> > > >>>   This playful approach as counterpoint to formal high stakes
> > > >> approaches.  This places the scope of play (itself) at the center of
> > our
> > > >> inquiry.
> > > >>>   This feels intuitively to be relevant to exemplary ways of
> > learning.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Like imagination, play is not taken seriously , but may be
> > > >> foundational or necessary for learning that is exemplary.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   From: Edward Wall
> > > >>>   Sent: November 17, 2016 4:45 PM
> > > >>>   To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>   Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> Re-started
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Larry
> > > >>>
> > > >>>        There are, at least, four somewhat current possibilities
> (I’m
> > > >> not sure if they should be called exemplars) as regards mathematics
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   1. Summerhill (and, perhaps, some other English private schools)
> > > >>>   2. Some private schools in the US (a book was written by a
> teacher
> > at
> > > >> one. If there is any interest I’ll see if I can dig up the title).
> > > >>>   3. The case of Louis P. Benezet in a US public school in1929
> > > >>>   4. There is some indication that schools in Finland and the
> > > >> Netherlands are, perhaps, a little less ‘neoliberal' (however, the
> > > evidence
> > > >> isn’t clear)
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Basically in some of the above formal mathematics instruction is
> > put
> > > >> off until either children ask or until until fourth or fifth grade;
> > > >> however, children engage in, you might say, mathematical play (Dewey
> > > >> recommended something like this). This is, by the way and according
> to
> > > >> some, also what a good mathematics preK program looks like. Also,
> this
> > > is a
> > > >> bit as regards mathematics what the ancient Greek version of
> schooling
> > > for
> > > >> the elite looked like (i.e. mathematics was put off).
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   Ed
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Nov 17, 2016, at  3:05 PM, lpscholar2@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The question remains, if this neoliberal context generates
> > > >> (hollowed-out) educational *spaces* or institutions then is it
> > possible
> > > we
> > > >> are able to offer exemplars of other educational places (current or
> > > >> historical) that manifested different kinds of identity formation
> that
> > > were
> > > >> not hollowed out. I speculate these exemplars would embody or
> > incarnate
> > > >> deeply historical and  ethical orientations and practices.
> > > >>>> If we have lost our way, are there other models (cultural
> > imaginaries)
> > > >> that co-generate developmental narratives that will nurture
> > well-being?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Exemplary models that point in a certain direction
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> From: Huw Lloyd
> > > >>>> Sent: November 17, 2016 11:32 AM
> > > >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> Re-started
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Alfredo,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Yes, they're pathological.  I am merely saying that the problems
> > > >> inherent
> > > >>>> in the pathology can be edifying.  No, I don't think the issues
> can
> > be
> > > >>>> transcended within conventional practices. Perhaps the best that
> can
> > > be
> > > >>>> achieved is that the students recognise an institutional need for
> > > "good
> > > >>>> behaviour" and the teacher recognises an educational need for real
> > > >> problem
> > > >>>> solving. For "real" education, we would need something like
> > Davydov's
> > > >>>> system. But this is merely one view of the purpose of "education".
> > > There
> > > >>>> are many who don't seem to recognise these (and other) important
> > > >>>> implications.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Best,
> > > >>>> Huw
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 17 November 2016 at 18:11, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > >
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Huw,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> great comments. I like what you say, that the (institutional,
> > social)
> > > >>>>> process always is educational, and I agree: it develops into the
> > > >> formation
> > > >>>>> of habit and character. But I still wonder whether all
> educational
> > > >>>>> processes lead to growth or development, or whether we rather
> > should
> > > be
> > > >>>>> able to identify some processes as, we may call them,
> > *pathological*
> > > >> (or
> > > >>>>> perhaps involutive?). There you have Bateson on double bind and
> > > >>>>> schizophrenia, for example. Here, in the article, we have some
> > young
> > > >>>>> students that enter a system that generates a double bind (it was
> > > Mike
> > > >> who
> > > >>>>> made me aware of the connection with double bind). The question
> is,
> > > >> will
> > > >>>>> the system develop without some form of awareness *about* the
> > double
> > > >> bind
> > > >>>>> that overcomes it by generating a system that does not only
> include
> > > the
> > > >>>>> double bind, but also its own description (thereby becoming a
> > higher
> > > >> order
> > > >>>>> system, one in which participants, students and teachers, come to
> > > grow
> > > >>>>> rather than come to stall).
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Alfredo
> > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > edu
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> on behalf of Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 10:54
> > > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> Re-started
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Alfredo,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The 'zone' is always present.  Whether it is recognised or not is
> > > >> another
> > > >>>>> matter.
> > > >>>>> I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game,
> > because
> > > >> there
> > > >>>>> is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is
> > > educational
> > > >> --
> > > >>>>> the laws reveal themselves one way or another.  So (from an
> Illich
> > > >>>>> perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it
> > > just
> > > >>>>> takes a different course.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>> Huw
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates
> > to
> > > >> this
> > > >>>>>> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach
> to
> > > >>>>>> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking,
> > that
> > > >>>>>> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation
> between
> > > >> two,
> > > >>>>> not
> > > >>>>>> something that either is present or absent within a person), and
> > > >>>>> Phillip's
> > > >>>>>> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as
> > all
> > > >> we
> > > >>>>> do.
> > > >>>>>> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have
> > > wonderfully
> > > >>>>>> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in
> > > maths,
> > > >>>>> but
> > > >>>>>> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can
> (whatever
> > > that
> > > >>>>> best
> > > >>>>>> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and
> > context
> > > >> that
> > > >>>>>> they come into gives them everything they need to develop
> motives
> > > and
> > > >>>>>> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it
> > so
> > > >> that
> > > >>>>>> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none,
> > > >> according
> > > >>>>>> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a
> > > >> hollowed-out
> > > >>>>>> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had
> > > >> illusion
> > > >>>>>> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide
> opportunities
> > to
> > > >>>>>> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math,
> but
> > > >> also a
> > > >>>>>> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had
> grown
> > in
> > > >>>>> people
> > > >>>>>> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do
> we
> > > >> have a
> > > >>>>>> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development?
> > Not
> > > >> just
> > > >>>>>> the absence of it, but the strangling of it.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Alfredo
> > > >>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > >> edu>
> > > >>>>>> on behalf of White, Phillip <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > > >>>>>> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29
> > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > Re-started
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't
> these
> > > >>>>> examples
> > > >>>>>> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at
> > where
> > > >> she
> > > >>>>> is
> > > >>>>>> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a
> > > looking
> > > >>>>> back
> > > >>>>>> at  what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then
> > > setting
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and
> stuff,
> > > so
> > > >>>>> yeah,
> > > >>>>>> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of
> > > present
> > > >>>>>> activities to attain future goals.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than
> "you".
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused
> merely
> > on
> > > >>>>> their
> > > >>>>>> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is
> all
> > > >> about
> > > >>>>>> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old
> people
> > > >> like me
> > > >>>>>> do.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data
> in
> > > >> this
> > > >>>>>> Eisenhard / Allen paper.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> phillip
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > >> edu>
> > > >>>>>> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM
> > > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > Re-started
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty
> > > >> mental
> > > >>>>>> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss
> articles
> > I
> > > >> have
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing
> > > rather
> > > >>>>> than
> > > >>>>>> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else
> is
> > > >>>>>> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense
> > of
> > > >> some
> > > >>>>>> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on
> > tenses,
> > > >> and
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in
> > and
> > > >> out
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at
> the
> > > way
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we
> see
> > > >>>>>> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at
> > what
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this
> > > >> simply
> > > >>>>>> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take
> > simple
> > > >>>>> present
> > > >>>>>> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is
> it
> > > >> because
> > > >>>>>> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and
> the
> > > >>>>> figured
> > > >>>>>> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is
> > youth?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is
> very
> > > >> much a
> > > >>>>>> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you"
> > you
> > > >>>>> often
> > > >>>>>> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I".
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself?
> > > >>>>>> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want
> to
> > > >> find
> > > >>>>> out
> > > >>>>>> if anybody really cares.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> To take another example that is probably more relevant to
> readers:
> > > >> both
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of
> > > >> statistical
> > > >>>>>> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the
> > > morning
> > > >>>>> after
> > > >>>>>> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of
> > > those
> > > >>>>> black
> > > >>>>>> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but
> > > couldn't
> > > >> be
> > > >>>>>> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class
> > voters"
> > > >> who
> > > >>>>>> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North
> > > >> Carolina
> > > >>>>>> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently
> > > knowing
> > > >> how
> > > >>>>>> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually
> presented
> > > as
> > > >>>>>> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself
> would
> > > be
> > > >>>>> part
> > > >>>>>> of its replication. This is something that statistical models
> that
> > > use
> > > >>>>>> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the
> > > >> impossible
> > > >>>>>> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times
> > > without
> > > >>>>> any
> > > >>>>>> memory at all).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together
> > you
> > > >>>>> notice
> > > >>>>>> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on
> your
> > > >>>>> question,
> > > >>>>>> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend
> > to
> > > >>>>> change
> > > >>>>>> your question according to the previous answer you received. On
> > the
> > > >> one
> > > >>>>>> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too
> > > >> wholly
> > > >>>>>> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of
> > these
> > > >>>>> moments
> > > >>>>>> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones,
> in
> > > >>>>> itself.
> > > >>>>>> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and
> > > >> objects
> > > >>>>> in
> > > >>>>>> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > hshonerd@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> David,
> > > >>>>>>> I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this
> > > topic,
> > > >>>>> but
> > > >>>>>>> the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection
> > > between
> > > >>>>>>> Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as
> > staged…interactants
> > > >>>>> view
> > > >>>>>>> themselves as “on stage”. I think the book by Vera and Reuben
> is
> > > >>>>> largely
> > > >>>>>>> about how differently math is “staged” by working
> mathematicians
> > as
> > > >>>>>>> contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be
> > > interesting
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>> analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold
> > each
> > > >>>>> other
> > > >>>>>>> in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of
> > > >> connecting
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media
> to
> > > >>>>> clarify
> > > >>>>>>> and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential
> > > elections,
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>> what not.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I would love to read your “unpublishable” on Langacker and
> > Halliday
> > > >> on
> > > >>>>>>> tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in
> > > “basic
> > > >>>>>>> domains”, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he
> > has
> > > >> said
> > > >>>>>>> that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As
> > > you’d
> > > >>>>>>> guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating
> > what
> > > he
> > > >>>>>> calls
> > > >>>>>>> “things” (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal
> > domain
> > > >> is
> > > >>>>>> more
> > > >>>>>>> closely connected to what he calls “processes” wherein he
> > analyzes
> > > >>>>> tense
> > > >>>>>>> and aspect.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive
> grammar
> > > has
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>>> long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is
> usage
> > > >> based,
> > > >>>>>>> rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I
> > > think
> > > >>>>>> there
> > > >>>>>>> is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though
> I’m
> > > not
> > > >>>>>> smart
> > > >>>>>>> enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the
> connection
> > > must
> > > >>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>> made by staying close to the data, “thick description”
> > > ethnographers
> > > >>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>> fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is
> > > raising
> > > >>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>> issue.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> The “hollowed out” math curriculum in the article resonates
> with
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> “potholes” you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say
> that
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>> hollowing out is typical even of “elite” K-12 schools. Some may
> > say
> > > >>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>> this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in
> > school
> > > >> was
> > > >>>>>>> often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn’t discover until I
> > got
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> “pure math” department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at
> Austin
> > > >> under
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in
> > > Chapter 8
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>> Vera’s and Reuben’s book.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I’ll end it there.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg <
> > dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Henry:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and
> > > >>>>>>>> Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with
> the
> > > >>>>>>> different
> > > >>>>>>>> theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker
> > > somehow
> > > >>>>>> sees
> > > >>>>>>> it
> > > >>>>>>>> as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space
> > > within
> > > >>>>>>> space).
> > > >>>>>>>> Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings
> and
> > > >>>>>>> happenings.
> > > >>>>>>>> Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal:
> it's
> > > >>>>>>> temporally
> > > >>>>>>>> deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine
> > that
> > > >>>>>>>> simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either
> > > >>>>> proleptically
> > > >>>>>> or
> > > >>>>>>>> retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this
> > article
> > > we
> > > >>>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>>> discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or
> > three
> > > >>>>> weeks
> > > >>>>>>>> now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you
> > into
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article
> has
> > > been
> > > >>>>>>> (past)
> > > >>>>>>>> being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems
> to
> > me
> > > >>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially.
> That
> > > is,
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply
> > more
> > > >> and
> > > >>>>>>> less
> > > >>>>>>>> abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for
> > example
> > > >> in
> > > >>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>> article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same:
> > the
> > > >>>>> task
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>> theory is really to define as precisely as possible the
> domain,
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> scope,
> > > >>>>>>>> the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science
> > > identities
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>> task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this
> > > >>>>>>>> domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed
> > > out a
> > > >>>>>>> little
> > > >>>>>>>> better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill
> the
> > > damn
> > > >>>>>>>> potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without
> doing
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> other:
> > > >>>>>>>> trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some
> > > task
> > > >>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>> you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental
> > space
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>> not
> > > >>>>>>>> as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the
> way
> > > you
> > > >>>>>> dig
> > > >>>>>>>> the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of
> > the
> > > >>>>>>> article:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement
> > plans",
> > > >>>>>>>> career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP
> > > classes)
> > > >>>>>>>> b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or
> > > what
> > > >>>>>>> Eckhart
> > > >>>>>>>> and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds',  'burnouts',
> > > >>>>>> 'gangbangers')
> > > >>>>>>>> c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves
> and
> > > what
> > > >>>>>> they
> > > >>>>>>>> think about themselves)
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they
> > are
> > > >>>>>>> probably
> > > >>>>>>>> better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they
> > really
> > > do
> > > >>>>>>>> overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings).
> > > >> Different
> > > >>>>>>>> people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings
> of
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> school
> > > >>>>>>>> boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of
> teachers
> > > and
> > > >>>>>>> groups
> > > >>>>>>>> of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students.
> > It's
> > > >>>>>> always
> > > >>>>>>>> tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all
> > the
> > > >>>>> data
> > > >>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>> and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against
> > > what
> > > >>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>> happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point
> of
> > > >>>>>>>> intervention is.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are
> figured
> > > by
> > > >>>>>>>> authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is
> that
> > > just
> > > >>>>> an
> > > >>>>>>>> artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words
> > > (although
> > > >>>>>> maybe
> > > >>>>>>>> not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real
> grounds
> > > for
> > > >>>>>>> hope?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their
> > own
> > > >>>>>>> *history*,
> > > >>>>>>>> *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not
> > make*
> > > >> it
> > > >>>>>>>> under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances
> > > >> existing
> > > >>>>>>>> already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition
> of
> > > all
> > > >>>>>> dead
> > > >>>>>>>> generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the
> > living."
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And
> > it's a
> > > >>>>>>>> theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD <
> > > hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> All,
> > > >>>>>>>>> I have read only part of Margaret’s and Carrie’s article,
> but I
> > > >>>>> wanted
> > > >>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera
> > > John-Steiner
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>> her
> > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating
> > > Mathematics:
> > > >>>>>>>>> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw’s point (v) which
> refers
> > > to
> > > >>>>>>>>> “identities of independence and finding out sustainable
> within
> > > >> these
> > > >>>>>>>>> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera’s and
> > > >>>>> Reuben’s
> > > >>>>>>> book
> > > >>>>>>>>> contrasts what it’s like to work and think like a real
> > (working)
> > > >>>>>>>>> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we
> > > call
> > > >>>>>>>>> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The
> > Teaching
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>>>>>> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?” is interesting reading and
> > > could
> > > >>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>>>> relevant to this discussion.
> > > >>>>>>>>> Henry
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd <
> > > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Margaret
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I
> leave
> > > it
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous
> > > term
> > > >>>>>>>>>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by
> arguments
> > > >> about
> > > >>>>>>>>>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the
> place
> > > of
> > > >>>>>>>>> identity.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity
> of
> > > >>>>> "model
> > > >>>>>>>>>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM
> > > subjects
> > > >>>>>> would
> > > >>>>>>>>>> relate to.  On this, I would point to the importance with
> > > >>>>> identifying
> > > >>>>>>>>> with
> > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness
> to
> > > >> find
> > > >>>>>>> out"
> > > >>>>>>>>>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity
> is
> > > >>>>>>>>> foregrounded
> > > >>>>>>>>>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as
> background
> > > >>>>> social
> > > >>>>>>>>>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing
> > at
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>> role
> > > >>>>>>>>>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out
> > about
> > > >>>>>>> unknowns.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied
> > set
> > > of
> > > >>>>>>>>>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored,
> such
> > > >> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable
> > > within
> > > >>>>>> these
> > > >>>>>>>>>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal
> with
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>> requirements placed upon the institutions.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Huw
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart <
> > > >>>>>>>>>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you
> for
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, “Hollowed
> > > Out.”
> > > >>>>>> We
> > > >>>>>>>>> also
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the
> > stream
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> thinking here!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others’
> ideas
> > > >> about
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we
> > would
> > > >>>>> like
> > > >>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the
> > students
> > > >>>>> were
> > > >>>>>>>>> making
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted
> them
> > > >>>>>> through
> > > >>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and
> > figured
> > > >>>>>> worlds
> > > >>>>>>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us
> > > >>>>> reflected
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some
> pretty
> > > >>>>> serious
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what
> > > >>>>> theories
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> others would use to explain the data we presented.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of
> > > >>>>> “exemplars”
> > > >>>>>>> we
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> might turn to.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Margaret Eisenhart
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <
> > > >>>>> lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense
> (preferably
> > > sens
> > > >>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within
> > meaning
> > > >> and
> > > >>>>>>>>> sense)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of this month’s article.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of
> > > (hollowed-out)
> > > >>>>>>> meaning
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for
> > > >>>>>>> developing a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> deeper sens of identity.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work
> of
> > > >>>>> social
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about
> > improving
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications
> of
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> study
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities – particulary
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed*
> to,
> > > can
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section
> > > >> (identity-in-context)
> > > >>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured
> > > worlds).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of
> > > history-in-person.
> > > >>>>>> That
> > > >>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of
> > > >> person
> > > >>>>>> one
> > > >>>>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in
> > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries
> > > >> (figured
> > > >>>>>>>>> worlds)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local
> > > practices
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as
> socially
> > > and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players
> > are
> > > >>>>>>>>> recognized
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> as (exemplars).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical
> > psychological
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving
> > meaning*
> > > >> to
> > > >>>>>>>>> *what*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> goes on in the directions we take together.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction)
> we
> > > >>>>> take.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The realm of the ethical turn
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper
> > > >> ethical
> > > >>>>>>> turn
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to
> as
> > > >> well
> > > >>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue
> as
> > > >>>>>> beacons
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the
> > > >>>>> neoliberal
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts
> from
> > > >>>>> their
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple
> imaginaries
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mike cole
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > >>>>> Re-started
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo--
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might
> > > send
> > > >>>>>> them
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> here:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to
> > web
> > > >>>>> site
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to
> > > >> implement.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > >>>>>>>>> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for
> > discussion:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math
> > and
> > > >>>>>> Science
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by
> > Margaret
> > > >>>>>>> Eisenhart
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so
> > during
> > > >> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion time at this link.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I
> > > >> shared
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> link
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the
> discussion
> > > to
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>>> halt
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent
> Margaret
> > > and
> > > >>>>>>> Carrie
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch
> up,
> > > but
> > > >> I
> > > >>>>>>> also
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce
> > themselves
> > > as
> > > >>>>>> soon
> > > >>>>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> they ??wanted.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a
> > > discussion
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>> an
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An
> > > >>>>> American
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tragedy"
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a
> > dark
> > > >> day
> > > >>>>>> for
> > > >>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer
> some
> > > >>>>> grounds
> > > >>>>>>> for
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's
> > home
> > > >>>>> now,
> > > >>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state
> > of
> > > >>>>> mind"
> > > >>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a
> neoliberal
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to
> > > >>>>> Trump's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of
> > > >> everyday
> > > >>>>>>> life.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background
> on
> > > >>>>> women's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> scholar
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant
> to
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without
> > halts, I
> > > >>>>> hope
> > > >>>>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > >>>>>>>>> edu>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of
> > > those
> > > >>>>>>> still
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she
> > joins
> > > us
> > > >>>>>> next
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > >>>>>>>>> edu>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret
> would
> > > be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick
> glance
> > > at
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to
> > wade
> > > >>>>> into
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> before she has had a word.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have
> > > until
> > > >>>>>> next
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> week
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to think about it.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries
> > to
> > > >>>>> catch
> > > >>>>>>> up!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out
> that
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> data
> > > >>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which
> was
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processes
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to
> > the
> > > >>>>>>>>> externally
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study
> > > using
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> theories
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, you reject the theories.  or so i understand your
> > > >>>>>> position.
> > > >>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> write: It's that the theory
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems as if
> > you
> > > >>>>> are
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this
> > point
> > > >> (in
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> case
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> grade,
> > > but
> > > >> I
> > > >>>>>>> think
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that
> it
> > > >> could
> > > >>>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to infancy.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the
> > > adult
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools?
> > that
> > > >>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> narrative
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but
> > rather
> > > >>>>> could
> > > >>>>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> traced
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in
> > > >>>>> particular
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american
> > > >>>>> education
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> began?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the
> Eisenhart/Allen
> > > >>>>> study,
> > > >>>>>>> what
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theories would you have used?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> phillip
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com
> >
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the
> > shallow
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of
> > meaning
> > > >> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense. I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes
> > > >>>>> *direction*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> within
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> meaning and sense.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of
> > > >> depends
> > > >>>>>> on
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal
> (you
> > > and
> > > >>>>>> me)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> way of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and
> > historical
> > > >>>>> ways
> > > >>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the
> > > >>>>>> *historical-in-person*.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the
> > > description
> > > >>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing
> > > >>>>>> circumstances*
> > > >>>>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article says:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other
> > > >>>>>> Sociocultural
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,*
> > that
> > > >>>>> is,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> learning
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a
> > > >>>>>> particular
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> context.  Identities conceived in this way are not
> stable
> > or
> > > >>>>>> fixed.
> > > >>>>>>>>> As
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so
> too
> > > may
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland &
> > > >> Skinner,
> > > >>>>>>>>> 1997).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity
> > > processes
> > > >>>>>> that
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> start
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are
> > > *external*
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the
> > > >>>>>> importance
> > > >>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or
> > > primordially
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving
> a
> > > gap
> > > >>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>> our
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> notions of *sens*.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the
> > *external*
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> highly
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in
> > > actual*ity.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A gap in *sens*.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be continued by others...
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of
> > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few
> > days,
> > > >>>>>> unsure
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to
> > start"
> > > >>>>>>> questions
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be
> > > working
> > > >>>>>> on.
> > > >>>>>>> In
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a
> > > moment
> > > >>>>>> which
> > > >>>>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the
> > Big
> > > >>>>>> Bang.
> > > >>>>>>>>> But
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to
> > start
> > > >>>>> (the
> > > >>>>>>> Big
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bang
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to
> mention
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> origins
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just
> > > >>>>>>> thoughtfully
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sent
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper
> > > leaves
> > > >> a
> > > >>>>>>>>> really
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> big
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this
> > gap
> > > is
> > > >>>>>>>>> largely
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society,
> > > >>>>> 'identity'
> > > >>>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others
> to
> > > be
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sustained."
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (p. 189)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b)  "It is notable that this construction of a good
> > student,
> > > >>>>>> though
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal
> > interest,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> excitement,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities."
> > > (193)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm
> > > >>>>>> confident',
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I'm
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are
> interpreted
> > in
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> context
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools,
> > > their
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> statements
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system
> > for
> > > >>>>>> being
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> good
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity
> > > >>>>> characteristics
> > > >>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> being
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work
> > > quickly,
> > > >>>>> do
> > > >>>>>> it
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> without
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an
> A."
> > > >>>>> (193)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given
> > by
> > > >>>>>>> society",
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the
> > context
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> figured
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems
> > to
> > > go
> > > >>>>>>>>> against
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as
> > Lowena's
> > > >>>>>> views
> > > >>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that
> > > >> contradicts
> > > >>>>>> my
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> data:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that
> > the
> > > >>>>>> theory
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I
> also
> > > >>>>> don't
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I
> > > think
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>> word
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and
> > > >>>>> engagement
> > > >>>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> much
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter
> > > easily,
> > > >>>>> do
> > > >>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster
> than
> > > >>>>> others
> > > >>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> get
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c)
> > is
> > > >>>>>>> actually
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I"
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are
> > talking
> > > >>>>>> about,
> > > >>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a
> relation
> > > >>>>> between
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand  or between the
> > > activity
> > > >>>>> at
> > > >>>>>>>>> hand
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured
> > world
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> neoliberal
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results and prospects.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a
> > > good
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue
> > in
> > > >>>>> both
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation
> become a
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and
> > > "you"
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> relationship
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my
> identity
> > (I
> > > >>>>> can
> > > >>>>>>> make
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> up
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own
> history,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> particularly
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a
> number
> > > and
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>>> class
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> over
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the
> > > >>>>>> interpersonal
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> somehow
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me
> > > like a
> > > >>>>>>>>> strange
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena)
> > > somewhere
> > > >>>>>>> between
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh
> grade,
> > > but
> > > >> I
> > > >>>>>>> think
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can
> > > >>>>> probably
> > > >>>>>>> find
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and
> > the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back
> to
> > > >>>>>>> (Vygotsky)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored"
> > language
> > > at
> > > >>>>>> one
> > > >>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and
> (Halliday)
> > > the
> > > >>>>>>> moment
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> when
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying
> > > >> clauses
> > > >>>>>>> ("I'm
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I
> > can
> > > >>>>> pull
> > > >>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> off")
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it").
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Macquarie University
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for
> discussion,
> > > >>>>> which
> > > >>>>>> is
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> now
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages<
> > > >>>>>> http://www.tandfonline
> > > >>>>>>> .
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's
> colourful
> > > >>>>> paper
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> (which
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ontogenesis),
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> we
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by
> Margaret
> > > >>>>>> Eisenhart
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining
> > Science
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Education
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as
> > the
> > > >>>>>> whole
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie
> > > together
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of
> > identity
> > > >> in
> > > >>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion
> > ?after
> > > US
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elections
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us
> > busy).
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, I
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share the link<http://www.tandfonline.
> > > >>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> .
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and also
> > attach
> > > it
> > > >>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> PDF.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ??Good read!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>