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[Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started



Alfredo,

The 'zone' is always present.  Whether it is recognised or not is another
matter.
I do not think this interpretation is quite a zero sum game, because there
is always the aspect that the institutionalised process is educational --
the laws reveal themselves one way or another.  So (from an Illich
perspective) the opportunity to discover what is real remains, it just
takes a different course.

Best,
Huw

On 17 November 2016 at 07:37, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> What touches me of the article is something that perhaps relates to this
> tension that I find between David's (individualistic?) approach to
> prolepsis in his post (David, I thought, and continue thinking, that
> prolepsis refers to something that emerges in the relation between two, not
> something that either is present or absent within a person), and Phillip's
> view of young people figuring out what life is all about just as all we do.
> And so here (and in any neoliberal school context) we have wonderfully
> beautiful young people more or less interested in science or in maths, but
> all eager to live a life and evolve as best as they can (whatever that best
> may mean for each one). And then you see how the history and context that
> they come into gives them everything they need to develop motives and
> goals; to then make sure that the majority of them won't make it so that
> only a few privileged (or in the case of Margaret's paper none, according
> to the authors) succeed. And then what remains is not just a hollowed-out
> science and math identity, but also a hollowed-out soul that had illusion
> and now just doesn't. Not only a failure to provide opportunities to
> learners to become anything(one) good about science and math, but also a
> robbing of other possible paths of development that may had grown in people
> if they had been hanging out with some other better company. Do we have a
> term to refer to the opposite of a zone of proximal development? Not just
> the absence of it, but the strangling of it.
>
> Alfredo
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of White, Phillip <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> Sent: 17 November 2016 06:29
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
>
> David, the examples on page 193, students 1, 2 & 3 - aren't these examples
> of proleptic thought - especially for student 2, who looks at where she is
> "I have my own standards", a statement of the present, then a looking back
> at  what has happened, "I like to get straight A's". and then setting a
> target for the future, "help for like to get in college and stuff, so yeah,
> I participate in a lot of stuff." ending with a reassertion of present
> activities to attain future goals.
>
>
> and there is a preponderance of the use of "I", rather than "you".
>
>
> i'd give the young people for credit than a myopia focused merely on their
> age: the business of young people is figuring out what life is all about
> and how to participate, just as adults and infants and old people like me
> do.
>
>
> i'm not convinced that your arguments are supported by the data in this
> Eisenhard / Allen paper.
>
>
> phillip
>
> ________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> on behalf of David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 1:24:35 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
>
> Actually, Henry, I was attacking the idea that tense is an empty mental
> space. I guess I am a little like Larry: when we discuss articles I have a
> strong tendency to try to make them relevant to what I am doing rather than
> to drop what I am doing and go and discuss what everybody else is
> discussing. So what I am doing right now is trying to make sense of some
> story-telling data where the adults are all over the map on tenses, and the
> kids seem to stick to one tense only. The adults are slipping in and out of
> mental spaces. The kids are telling stories.
>
> I think the relevance to the article is this: When you look at the way the
> article frames institutional practices and figured worlds, we see
> prolepsis--a preoccupation with the future. But when we look at what the
> kids are doing and saying it is very much in the moment. Is this simply
> because mental processes like "like" and "want" tend to take simple present
> (because they are less defined than material processes)? Or is it because
> while the institutions have the near future firmly in view and the figured
> worlds have irrealis in view, the business of young people is youth?
>
> Vygotsky points out that the question the interviewer asks is very much a
> part of the data. For example, if you ask a question using "you" you often
> get "you" in reply, even if you design your question to get "I".
>
> Q: Why do you want to kill yourself?
> A: The same reason everybody wants to kill themselves. You want to find out
> if anybody really cares.
>
> To take another example that is probably more relevant to readers: both the
> Brexit vote and the American elections are clear examples of statistical
> unreliability in that if you tried to repeat the election the morning after
> you would probably get an utterly different result. Take all of those black
> voters and the real working class voters who voted Obama but couldn't be
> bothered for Hillary (not the imaginary "white working class voters" who
> work in imaginary industries in Iowa, rural Pennsylvania, North Carolina
> and Florida). They might well have behaved rather differently knowing how
> imminent the neo-Confederacy really was. This is usually presented as
> "buyer's remorse," but it's more than that; the event itself would be part
> of its replication. This is something that statistical models that use
> standard error of the mean cannot build in (they work on the impossible
> idea that you can repeat an event ten or twenty thousand times without any
> memory at all).
>
> In the same way, when you interview a group of students together you notice
> that they tend to model answers on each other rather than on your question,
> and when you interview them separately, you notice that YOU tend to change
> your question according to the previous answer you received. On the one
> hand, life is not easily distracted by its own future: it is too wholly
> there in each moment of existence. On the other hand, each of these moments
> includes the previous one, and therefore all the previous ones, in itself.
> The past weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living, and objects in
> the rear view mirror are always closer than they appear.
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > David,
> > I was puzzled that you found Langacker to be relevant to this topic, but
> > the last paragraph of your post makes an important connection between
> > Langacker and Vygotsky: Both see speech acts as staged…interactants view
> > themselves as “on stage”. I think the book by Vera and Reuben is largely
> > about how differently math is “staged” by working mathematicians as
> > contrasted with doing math in school. I think it would be interesting to
> > analyze how natural language and the language of math scaffold each other
> > in both contexts. Word problems have been a well-used way of connecting
> the
> > two languages; stats and graphs are commonly used in the media to clarify
> > and elaborate text in articles on economics, presidential elections, and
> > what not.
> >
> > I would love to read your “unpublishable” on Langacker and Halliday on
> > tense. What I recall from reading Langacker is his interest in “basic
> > domains”, starting with the temporal and spatial. Somewhere he has said
> > that he believes that the temporal domain is the more basic. As you’d
> > guess, the spatial domain is especially useful in elucidating what he
> calls
> > “things” (nouns are conceptually about things); the temporal domain is
> more
> > closely connected to what he calls “processes” wherein he analyzes tense
> > and aspect.
> >
> > I think Langacker would agree that his work in cognitive grammar has a
> > long way to go in contributing to the idea that grammar is usage based,
> > rather than some autonomous module, but he is working on it. I think
> there
> > is a potential for connecting Halliday and Langacker, though I’m not
> smart
> > enough to convince you of that evidently. Somehow the connection must be
> > made by staying close to the data, “thick description” ethnographers are
> > fond of saying. I think the article by Carrie and Margaret is raising
> this
> > issue.
> >
> > The “hollowed out” math curriculum in the article resonates with the
> > “potholes” you say teachers must watch out for. Some may say that  the
> > hollowing out is typical even of “elite” K-12 schools. Some may say that
> > this is deliberate. I would say my own experience of math in school was
> > often hollowed out, which I sensed, but didn’t discover until I got to
> the
> > “pure math” department in the mid 60s at Univ of Texas at Austin under
> the
> > leadership of Robert Lee Moore. He is a main protagonist in Chapter 8 of
> > Vera’s and Reuben’s book.
> >
> > I’ll end it there.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:38 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry:
> > >
> > > I just wrote another unpublishable comparing how Langacker and
> > > Halliday treat tense, and I'm starting to come to grips with the
> > different
> > > theory of experience underlying the two grammars. Langacker somehow
> sees
> > it
> > > as creating empty mental space (and aspect as creating space within
> > space).
> > > Halliday sees tense as a way of abstracting concrete doings and
> > happenings.
> > > Halliday's tense system is not spatial at all but temporal: it's
> > temporally
> > > deictic and then temporally recursive: a kind of time machine that
> > > simultaneously transports and orients the speaker either proleptically
> or
> > > retroleptically. So for example if I say to you that this article we
> are
> > > discussing is going to have been being discussed for two or three weeks
> > > now, then "is going" is a kind of time machine that takes you into the
> > > future, from which "You are Here" vantage point the article has been
> > (past)
> > > being discussed (present). Present in the past in the future.
> > >
> > > And that got me thinking about theory and practice. It seems to me that
> > the
> > > they are related, but simultaneously and not sequentially. That is, the
> > > output of one is not the input of the other: they are simply more and
> > less
> > > abstract ways of looking at one and the same thing. So for example in
> > this
> > > article the tasks of theory and practice are one and the same: the task
> > of
> > > theory is really to define as precisely as possible the domain, the
> > scope,
> > > the range of the inquiry into authoring math and science identities and
> > the
> > > task of practice is to ask what exactly you want to do in this
> > > domain/scope/range--to try to understand how they are hollowed out a
> > little
> > > better so that maybe teachers like you and me can help fill the damn
> > > potholes in a little. You can't really do the one without doing the
> > other:
> > > trying to decide the terrain under study without deciding some task
> that
> > > you want to do there is like imagining tense as empty mental space and
> > not
> > > as some actual, concrete doing or happening. Conversely, the way you
> dig
> > > the hole depends very much on how big and where you want it.
> > >
> > > So there are three kinds of mental spaces in the first part of the
> > article:
> > >
> > > a) institutional arrangements (e.g. "priority improvement plans",
> > > career-academy/comprehensive school status STEM tracks, AP classes)
> > > b) figured worlds (e.g. 'good students', and 'don't cares', or what
> > Eckhart
> > > and McConnell-Ginet called 'jocks', 'nerds',  'burnouts',
> 'gangbangers')
> > > c) authored identities (i.e. what kids say about themselves and what
> they
> > > think about themselves)
> > >
> > > Now, I think it's possible to make this distinction--but they are
> > probably
> > > better understood not as mental spaces (in which case they really do
> > > overlap) but rather as doings (or, as is my wont, sayings). Different
> > > people are saying different things: a) is mostly the sayings of the
> > school
> > > boards and administrators, b) is mostly the sayings of teachers and
> > groups
> > > of kids, and c) is mostly the sayings of individual students. It's
> always
> > > tempting for a theory to focus on c), because that's where all the data
> > is
> > > and it's tempting for practice too, because if you are against what is
> > > happening in a) and in b), that's where the most likely point of
> > > intervention is.
> > >
> > > "But the data does suggest that the "figured worlds" are figured by
> > > authored identities--not by institutional arrangements. Is that just an
> > > artefact of the warm empathy of the authors for the words (although
> maybe
> > > not the exact wordings) of their subjects, or is it real grounds for
> > hope?
> > >
> > > Marx says (beginning of the 18th Brumaire): "*Men make* their own
> > *history*,
> > > *but they* do *not make* it as *they* please; *they* do *not make* it
> > > under self-selected circumstances, *but* under circumstances existing
> > > already, given and transmitted from the *past*. The tradition of all
> dead
> > > generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living."
> > >
> > > It's a good theory, i.e. at once a truth and a tragedy. And it's a
> > > theory treats time as time and not as an empty stage.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:39 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> All,
> > >> I have read only part of Margaret’s and Carrie’s article, but I wanted
> > to
> > >> jump in with a reference to a book by Vygotskian Vera John-Steiner and
> > her
> > >> mathematician husband Reuben Hersh: Loving and Hating Mathematics:
> > >> Challenging the Mathematical Life. Huw’s point (v) which refers to
> > >> “identities of independence and finding out sustainable within these
> > >> settings (school math classes) spent high school. Vera’s and Reuben’s
> > book
> > >> contrasts what it’s like to work and think like a real (working)
> > >> mathematician (what I think Huw is talking about) and what we call
> > >> mathematics in the classroom. Chapter 8 of the book "The Teaching of
> > >> Mathematics: Fierce or Friendly?” is interesting reading and could be
> > >> relevant to this discussion.
> > >> Henry
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:47 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear Margaret
> > >>>
> > >>> My reading has not been a particularly careful one, so I leave it to
> > >>> yourselves to judge the usefulness of these points.
> > >>>
> > >>> i) Whether arguments can be made (for or against) a nebulous term
> > >>> (neoliberalism) with its political associations, by arguments about
> > >>> identity that are themselves not deliberately political.
> > >>>
> > >>> ii) Whether it is better not to focus essentially on the place of
> > >> identity.
> > >>>
> > >>> iii) Whether it is worthwhile contrasting the role/identity of "model
> > >>> student" with "identities" that anyone excelling at STEM subjects
> would
> > >>> relate to.  On this, I would point to the importance with identifying
> > >> with
> > >>> appreciations for "awareness of not knowing" and "eagerness to find
> > out"
> > >>> (which also entails learning about what it means to know).
> > >>>
> > >>> iv) Whether you detect that to the degree that an identity is
> > >> foregrounded
> > >>> in the actual practice of STEM work (rather than as background social
> > >>> appeasement), it is being faked? That is, someone is playing at the
> > role
> > >>> rather than actually committing themselves to finding out about
> > unknowns.
> > >>>
> > >>> v) Whether, in fact, there is actually a "tiered" or varied set of
> > >>> acceptable "identities" within the settings you explored, such that
> > >>> identities of independence and finding out are sustainable within
> these
> > >>> settings, possibly representing a necessary fudge to deal with the
> > >>> requirements placed upon the institutions.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Huw
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12 November 2016 at 20:30, Margaret A Eisenhart <
> > >>> margaret.eisenhart@colorado.edu> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hello Everyone,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Carrie and I are newcomers to this list, and we thank you for the
> > >>>> opportunity to engage with you about our article, “Hollowed Out.”
> We
> > >> also
> > >>>> hope for your patience as we learn to participate in the stream of
> > >>>> thinking here!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Given the comments so far, we are intrigued by others’ ideas about
> the
> > >>>> link between our theory and our data.  On this topic, we would like
> to
> > >>>> make clear that we did not intend to suggest that the students were
> > >> making
> > >>>> sense of their lives in the same way that we interpreted them
> through
> > >> the
> > >>>> lens of our theory. Our claim is that opportunities and figured
> worlds
> > >> are
> > >>>> resources for identity and that the students' words to us reflected
> > >>>> perspectives consistent with neoliberalism, with some pretty serious
> > >>>> implications. Like Phillip White, we are interested in what theories
> > >>>> others would use to explain the data we presented.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Like Mike Cole, we are also intrigued by the prospect of “exemplars”
> > we
> > >>>> might turn to.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Margaret Eisenhart
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 11/11/16, 11:35 AM, "lpscholar2@gmail.com" <lpscholar2@gmail.com
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> A resumption in exploring the meaning and sense (preferably sens as
> > >> this
> > >>>>> term draws attention to movement and direction within meaning and
> > >> sense)
> > >>>>> of this month’s article.
> > >>>>> The paper begins with the title and the image of (hollowed-out)
> > meaning
> > >>>>> and sense that is impoverished and holds few resources for
> > developing a
> > >>>>> deeper sens of identity.
> > >>>>> The article concludes with the implication that the work of social
> > >>>>> justice within educational institutions is not about improving
> > >>>>> educational outcome in neoliberal terms; the implications of the
> > study
> > >>>>> are about *reorganizing* the identities – particulary
> > >>>>> identities-with-standind that young people are *exposed* to, can
> > >>>>> articulate, and can act on (in school and beyond).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I would say this is taking an ethical stand?.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I will now turn to page 189 and the section (identity-in-context)
> to
> > >>>>> amplify the notion of (cultural imaginary) and (figured worlds).
> > >>>>> This imaginary being the site or location of history-in-person.
> That
> > is
> > >>>>> identity is a form of legacy (or *text*) ABOUT the kind of person
> one
> > >> is
> > >>>>> or has become in responding to (external) circumstances.
> > >>>>> These external circumstances are EXPERIENCED primarily in the
> > >>>>> organization of local practices and cultural imaginaries (figured
> > >> worlds)
> > >>>>> that circulate and *give meaning* (and sens) to local practices
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Figured worlds are interpreted following Holland as socially and
> > >>>>> culturally *realms of interpretation* and certain players are
> > >> recognized
> > >>>>> as (exemplars).
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> As such cultural, social, historical, dialogical psychological
> > >>>>> (imaginaries) are handmaidens of the imaginal *giving meaning* to
> > >> *what*
> > >>>>> goes on in the directions we take together.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Two key terms i highlight are (exemplars) and (direction) we take.
> > >>>>> The realm of the ethical turn
> > >>>>> What are the markers and signposts emerging in the deeper ethical
> > turn
> > >>>>> that offers more than a hollowed-out answer.
> > >>>>> Are there any *ghost* stories of exemplars we can turn to as well
> as
> > >>>>> living exemplars? By ghosts i mean ancestors who continue as
> beacons
> > of
> > >>>>> hope exemplifying *who* we are.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> My way into exploring the impoverished narratives of the neoliberal
> > >>>>> imaginary and reawakening exemplary ancestors or ghosts from their
> > >>>>> slumber to help guide us through these multiple imaginaries
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> From: mike cole
> > >>>>> Sent: November 9, 2016 3:04 PM
> > >>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion Re-started
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Alfredo--
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> for any who missed the initial article sent out, you might send
> them
> > >>>>> here:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am meeting shortly with Bruce. A list of improvements to web site
> > >>>>> welcome, although not clear how long they will take to implement.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> mike
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > >> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Dear all,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> last week I announced MCA's 3rd Issue article for discussion:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> "Hollowed Out: Meaning and Authoring of High School Math and
> Science
> > >>>>>> Identities in the Context of Neoliberal Reform," by Margaret
> > Eisenhart
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>> Carrie Allen.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The article is open access and will continue to be so during the
> > >>>>>> discussion time at this link.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks to everyone who begun the discussion early after I shared
> the
> > >>>>>> link
> > >>>>>> last week, and sorry that we sort of brought the discussion to a
> > halt
> > >>>>>> until
> > >>>>>> the authors were ready to discuss. I have now sent Margaret and
> > Carrie
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> posts that were produced then so that they could catch up, but I
> > also
> > >>>>>> invited them to feel free to move on an introduce themselves as
> soon
> > >> as
> > >>>>>> they ??wanted.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> It is not without some doubts that one introduces a discussion of
> an
> > >>>>>> article in a moment that some US media have called as "An American
> > >>>>>> Tragedy"
> > >>>>>> and other international editorials are describing as "a dark day
> for
> > >> the
> > >>>>>> world." But I believe that the paper may indeed offer some grounds
> > for
> > >>>>>> discuss important issues that are at stake in everyone's home now,
> > as
> > >>>>>> Mike
> > >>>>>> recently describes in a touching post on the "local state of mind"
> > and
> > >>>>>> that
> > >>>>>> have to do with identity and its connection to a neoliberal
> > >>>>>> organisation of
> > >>>>>> the economy. It is not difficult to link neoliberalism to Trump's
> > >>>>>> phenomenon and how it pervades very intimate aspects of everyday
> > life.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If this was not enough, I think the authors' background on women's
> > >>>>>> scholar
> > >>>>>> and professional careers in science is totally relevant to the
> > >>>>>> discussions
> > >>>>>> on gendered discourse we've been having. Now without halts, I hope
> > >> this
> > >>>>>> thread gives joys and wisdom to all.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Alfredo
> > >>>>>> ________________________________________
> > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > >> edu>
> > >>>>>> on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > >>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:48
> > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks Mike and everyone! I am sure Margaret (and many of those
> > still
> > >>>>>> reading) will be happy to be able to catch up when she joins us
> next
> > >>>>>> week!
> > >>>>>> Alfredo
> > >>>>>> ________________________________________
> > >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > >> edu>
> > >>>>>> on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > >>>>>> Sent: 02 November 2016 01:32
> > >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Gentlemen -- I believe Fernando told us that Margaret would be
> > >>>>>> able to join this discussion next week. Just a quick glance at the
> > >>>>>> discussion so far indicates that there is a lot there to wade into
> > >>>>>> before she has had a word.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I am only part way through the article, expecting to have until
> next
> > >>>>>> week
> > >>>>>> to think about it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> May I suggest your forbearance while this slow-poke tries to catch
> > up!
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:38 PM, White, Phillip
> > >>>>>> <Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> David & Larry, everyone else ...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> by way of introduction, Margaret and Carrie point out that the
> data
> > >> in
> > >>>>>>> this paper emerged through a three year study - which was the
> > >>>>>> processes
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> how students of color, interested in STEM, responded to the
> > >> externally
> > >>>>>>> imposed neoliberal requirements. they framed their study using
> > >>>>>> theories
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> social practices on how identity developed in context.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> David, you reject the theories.  or so i understand your
> position.
> > as
> > >>>>>> you
> > >>>>>>> write: It's that the theory
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> are you also rejecting the data as well?  it seems as if you are
> > >>>>>>> suggesting this when you write: The authors find this point (in
> the
> > >>>>>> case
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> Lorena) somewhere between the
> > >>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I
> > think
> > >>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> you reject the narrative of Lorena on the grounds that it could
> be
> > >>>>>> traced
> > >>>>>>> back to infancy.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> do you also reject the identical narrative found in the adult
> > >>>>>>> practitioners within the context of the high schools?  that this
> > >>>>>> narrative
> > >>>>>>> is not one of a contemporary neoliberal practice but rather could
> > be
> > >>>>>> traced
> > >>>>>>> back to, say, the mid 1600's new england colonies, in particular
> > >>>>>>> massachusettes, where the practices of public american education
> > >>>>>> began?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> to explain the data that emerged from the Eisenhart/Allen study,
> > what
> > >>>>>>> theories would you have used?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> phillip
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > >>>>>>> on behalf of lpscholar2@gmail.com <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2016 7:03 AM
> > >>>>>>> To: David Kellogg; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Margaret and Carrie,
> > >>>>>>> Thank you for this wonderful paper that explains the shallow
> > >>>>>>> *hollowed-out* way of forming identity as a form of meaning and
> > >>>>>> sense. I
> > >>>>>>> will add the French word *sens* which always includes *direction*
> > >>>>>> within
> > >>>>>>> meaning and sense.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> David, your response that what our theory makes sens of depends
> on
> > >>>>>> where
> > >>>>>>> we are looking makes sens to me.
> > >>>>>>> You put in question the moment when the interpersonal (you and
> me)
> > >>>>>> way of
> > >>>>>>> authoring sens *shifts* or turns to cultural and historical ways
> of
> > >>>>>> being
> > >>>>>>> immersed in sens. The article refers to the
> *historical-in-person*.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My further comment, where I am looking) is in the description of
> > the
> > >>>>>>> sociocultural as a response to *externally changing
> circumstances*
> > >> as
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> process of *learning as becoming* (see page 190).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The article says:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This process is what Lave and Wenger (1991) and other
> Sociocultural
> > >>>>>>> researchers have referred to as *learning as becoming,* that is,
> > >>>>>> learning
> > >>>>>>> that occurs as one becomes a certain kind of person in a
> particular
> > >>>>>>> context.  Identities conceived in this way are not stable or
> fixed.
> > >> As
> > >>>>>>> *external circumstances* affecting a person change, so too may
> the
> > >>>>>>> identities that are produced *in response*. (Holland & Skinner,
> > >> 1997).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In this version of *history-in-person* the identity processes
> that
> > >>>>>> start
> > >>>>>>> the process moving in a neoliberal *direction* are *external*
> > >>>>>>> circumstances. I am not questioning this version of the
> importance
> > of
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> external but do question if looking primarily or primordially to
> > the
> > >>>>>>> external circumstances as central if we are not leaving a gap in
> > our
> > >>>>>>> notions of *sens*.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> If by looking or highlighting or illuminating the *external* and
> > >>>>>> highly
> > >>>>>>> visible acts of the actual we are leaving a gap in actual*ity.
> > >>>>>>> A gap in *sens*.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> To be continued by others...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> From: David Kellogg
> > >>>>>>> Sent: October 31, 2016 2:15 PM
> > >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: MCA Issue 3 article for discussion
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I was turning Mike's request--for a short explanation of the
> > >>>>>>> Halliday/Vygotsky interface--over in my mind for a few days,
> unsure
> > >>>>>> where
> > >>>>>>> to start. I usually decide these difficult "where to start"
> > questions
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>> the easiest possible way, with whatever I happen to be working
> on.
> > In
> > >>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>> case it's the origins of language in a one year old, a moment
> which
> > >> is
> > >>>>>>> almost as mysterious to me as the origins of life or the Big
> Bang.
> > >> But
> > >>>>>>> perhaps for that very reason it's not a good place to start (the
> > Big
> > >>>>>> Bang
> > >>>>>>> always seemed to me to jump the gun a bit, not to mention the
> > origins
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> life).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Let me start with the "Hollowed Out" paper Alfredo just
> > thoughtfully
> > >>>>>> sent
> > >>>>>>> around instead. My first impression is that this paper leaves a
> > >> really
> > >>>>>> big
> > >>>>>>> gap between the data and the conclusions, and that this gap is
> > >> largely
> > >>>>>>> filled by theory. Here are some examples of what I mean:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> a)    "Whereas 'subject position' is given by society, 'identity'
> > is
> > >>>>>>> self-authored, although it must be recognized by others to be
> > >>>>>> sustained."
> > >>>>>>> (p. 189)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> b)  "It is notable that this construction of a good student,
> though
> > >>>>>>> familiar, does not make any reference to personal interest,
> > >>>>>> excitement,
> > >>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>> engagement in the topics or content-related activities." (193)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> c)  "When students' statements such as 'I get it', 'I'm
> confident',
> > >>>>>> 'I'm
> > >>>>>>> good at this', and  'I can pull this off' are interpreted in the
> > >>>>>> context
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> the figured world of math or science at the two schools, their
> > >>>>>> statements
> > >>>>>>> index more than a grade. They reference a meaning system for
> being
> > >>>>>> good
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>> math or science that includes the actor identity characteristics
> of
> > >>>>>> being
> > >>>>>>> able to grasp the subject matter easily, do the work quickly, do
> it
> > >>>>>> without
> > >>>>>>> help from others, do it faster than others, and get an A." (193)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In each case, we are told to believe in a theory: "given by
> > society",
> > >>>>>>> "self-authored", "does not make any reference", "the context of
> the
> > >>>>>> figured
> > >>>>>>> world". It's not just that in each case the theory seems to go
> > >> against
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> data (although it certainly does in places, such as Lowena's
> views
> > as
> > >>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>> tenth grader). I can always live with a theory that contradicts
> my
> > >>>>>> data:
> > >>>>>>> that's what being a rationalist is all about. It's that the
> theory
> > >>>>>>> contradicts my own personal theories.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I don't believe that identity is self authored, and I also don't
> > >>>>>> believe
> > >>>>>>> that subject position is given by society as a whole, I think the
> > >> word
> > >>>>>>> "good" does include personal interest, excitement, and engagement
> > as
> > >>>>>> much
> > >>>>>>> as it includes being able to grasp the subject matter easily, do
> > the
> > >>>>>> work
> > >>>>>>> quickly, do it without help from others, do it faster than others
> > and
> > >>>>>> get
> > >>>>>>> an A. To me anyway, the key word in the data given in c) is
> > actually
> > >>>>>> "I"
> > >>>>>>> and not "it" or "this": the students think they are talking
> about,
> > >> and
> > >>>>>>> therefore probably are actually talking about, a relation between
> > >>>>>> their
> > >>>>>>> inner states and the activity at hand  or between the activity at
> > >> hand
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>> the result they get; they are not invoking the figured world of
> > >>>>>> neoliberal
> > >>>>>>> results and prospects.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> But never mind my own theories. Any gap is, after all, a good
> > >>>>>> opportunity
> > >>>>>>> for theory building. The authors are raising a key issue in both
> > >>>>>> Vygotsky
> > >>>>>>> and Halliday: when does an interpersonal relation become a
> > >>>>>>> historico-cultural one? That is, when does that 'me" and "you"
> > >>>>>> relationship
> > >>>>>>> in which I really do have the power to author my identity (I can
> > make
> > >>>>>> up
> > >>>>>>> any name I want and, within limits, invent my own history,
> > >>>>>> particularly
> > >>>>>> if
> > >>>>>>> I am a backpacker) give way to a job, an address, a number and a
> > >> class
> > >>>>>> over
> > >>>>>>> which I have very little power at all? When does the
> interpersonal
> > >>>>>> somehow
> > >>>>>>> become an alien ideational "identity" that confronts me like a
> > >> strange
> > >>>>>>> ghost when I look in the mirror?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The authors find this point (in the case of Lorena) somewhere
> > between
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> beginning of the tenth and the end of the eleventh grade, but I
> > think
> > >>>>>>> that's just because it's where they are looking. We can probably
> > find
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> roots of this distinction (between the interpersonal and the
> > >>>>>>> historico-cultural) as far back as we like, right back to
> > (Vygotsky)
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> moment when the child gives up the "self-authored" language at
> one
> > >> and
> > >>>>>>> takes on the language recognized by others and (Halliday) the
> > moment
> > >>>>>> when
> > >>>>>>> the child distinguishes between Attributive identifying clauses
> > ("I'm
> > >>>>>>> confident", "I'm good at this"), material processes ("I can pull
> > this
> > >>>>>> off")
> > >>>>>>> and mental ones ("I get it").
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> (To be continued...but not necessarily by me!)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> David Kellogg
> > >>>>>>> Macquarie University
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
> > >>>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Dear xmca'ers,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I am excited to announce the next article for discussion, which
> is
> > >>>>>> now
> > >>>>>>>> available open access at the T&F MCA pages<
> http://www.tandfonline
> > .
> > >>>>>>>> com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.2016.1188962>.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> After a really interesting discussion on Zaza's colourful paper
> > >>>>>> (which
> > >>>>>>>> still goes on developed into a discussion on micro- and
> > >>>>>> ontogenesis),
> > >>>>>> we
> > >>>>>>>> will from next week be looking at an article by Margaret
> Eisenhart
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>> Carrie Allen from the special issue on "Reimagining Science
> > >>>>>> Education
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>> the Neoliberal Global Context". I think the article, as the
> whole
> > >>>>>> issue,
> > >>>>>>>> offers a very neat example of research trying to tie together
> > >>>>>>>> cultural/economical? and developmental aspects (of identity in
> > this
> > >>>>>>> case).
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Margaret has kindly accepted to join the discussion ?after US
> > >>>>>> elections
> > >>>>>>>> (which will surely keep the attention of many of us busy).
> > >>>>>> Meanwhile, I
> > >>>>>>>> share the link<http://www.tandfonline.
> > com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039
> > >>>> .
> > >>>>>>>> 2016.1188962>  to the article (see above), and also attach it as
> > >>>>>> PDF.
> > >>>>>>>> ??Good read!
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Alfredo
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
>
Status: O