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[Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage



James, could you elaborate on the notion of (free will) in semiosis as *marking* phenomena. (the root of semiosis). In particular in relation to perception as  (intentional) and perception as (attentional) processes.


Michael, your comment on *shamans* who kept memory alive must include the way shamans also brought new emerging meaning to the people through abductive semiosis.

As I read James Ma’s Peirce (my way of saying how James has incorporated Peirce into his personal way of perceiving/interpreting Peircean concepts as his own) I read how James is developing his *mind’s eye*. 
This mind’s eye is interpretive all the way down. (turtles all the way down).

I am fuzzy and vague on this particular  abductive intuition, but send it *out* for deeper  multimodal elaboration distributed through our (mind’s eye). 


Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk)
Sent: June 16, 2016 2:06 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage

Thanks for your comments, Michael.


This is my take on: when dealing with the outpouring of information technologies, the omnipotence of one's perception and free will cannot be discounted, however fast the "transition" may be in terms of semiotic stimuli encountered in the environment. Perception is always interpretative, tied to the social, cultural and historical situations in which an individual finds himself. Despite the "thrown-ness" of one's existence into such situations (as Heidegger would say), one's perception is always selective in virtue of free will. The human mind is by nature mediated and mediating, in which case I believe Peirce's iconicity does apply.


James


________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
Sent: 15 June 2016 18:02
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage

But James,

Is this true in light of information technologies.  Information never dies on the Internet, and it is never confabulated.  It is basically constant.  We seem to be having trouble with this as a society because the transition has been so fast.

I wonder if before external semiotic symbols memory was stored in a shaman or a story teller.  Nobody could question memory because the keeper of memories was the only source.

With external semiotic symbols memory started to be kept in the external narrative.  But the gatekeepers became those who wrote or reported the narratives.  People depended on experts and there was really no way to challenge this.  Dewey has written some real interesting stuff on this.

As we become more used to external symbols becoming more continuous because they are both more accessible and as I mentioned they are constant there is a growing change I think in who and or what we choose to mediate our memories.  In many cases we mediate them ourselves.  This is really showing up in the US election in a number of interesting and strange ways.

So how does Pierce's ideas on semiosis apply when there are no mediating force and there is much less of a battle over the actual external symbols that are representative of our memories?

Michael






d
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of Ma, James (james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk) [james.ma@canterbury.ac.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2016 12:32 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; ablunden@mira.net
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage

Just to add that memory is also unreliable. In general, the human mind is only capable of remembering the nub of something and at the same time tends to confabulate the details of that something when recalling. Semiotically speaking, each time we recall something, our memory is mediated by those already confabulated details - which leads to a further distorted interpretation. Peirce's semiosis is relevant here.


James


________________________________
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Sent: 15 June 2016 12:52
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage

I think our *memory* would change. And I don't know how far
back our way of conceiving of human powers in terms of
analogous human powers goes, but I guess it would change our
*conception* of memory.

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
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http://home.mira.net/~andy
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http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making

On 15/06/2016 9:48 PM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> Thanks Andy,
>
> Interesting, maybe that's why I merged the Arseniev anecdote and the use of strings to aid memory.   I wonder if when we developed semiotic mediators conception of memory changed (of course nobody thought of it as memory at the time), and if now with new types of storage of and access to semiotic mediators if our conception of memory is changing again.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 9:37 PM
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage
>
> This also has material about sending messages:
>
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/man/ch04.htm
> (especially the last few paragraphs)
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> On 15/06/2016 6:49 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> Yes, I think that's it.  I must have been merging this description with the strings used for memory described by Leontiev Bella pointed to.
>>
>> Thanks so much, this solves one mystery in my life.  I wish they could all be answered so quickly.
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 4:36 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage
>>
>> Michael:
>>
>> I think you are actually thinking of an incident that Vygotsky describes from the work of V.K. Arsen'ev. It's on p. 50 of Vol. Four of the Collected Works, and you can read it here:
>>
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1931/research-method.h
>> tm
>>
>> See paragraph 118. There's also a footnote about it in "Concrete Psychology" (see number 14).
>>
>> By some accounts, Vygosky was in correspondence with Arsen'ev, who wrote "Dersu the Trapper". Akira Kurasawa made this book into a wonderful movie, which you can see here.
>>
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QYxy2HkpJ0&list=PL0dYx2N3BTuRcLGyHXBs
>> zwNgSy-0GoAfM
>>
>> David Kellogg
>> Macquarie University
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Glassman, Michael
>> <glassman.13@osu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Bella.  The passage I remember, or think I remember, was
>>> definitely along the same lines.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 2:46 PM
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Vygotskian Passage
>>>
>>> The picture attached is from the book of Leontiev A.N. The
>>> development Mind of a chapter on the historical development of higher forms of memory.
>>> p.301
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 8:50 PM, Glassman, Michael
>>> <glassman.13@osu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wonder if somebody might be able to help me.  I seem to remember a
>>>> passage from Vygotsky where he describes a person going between
>>>> villages, I think to deliver messages.  He uses some type of
>>>> external symbol system, maybe tying strings around his finger.  Does
>>>> anybody know if that really exists and if so where.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance to anybody who might be able to help.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>