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[Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three



I suppose I am talking about etymology as an insight into the institutions rather than the words.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 25/11/2015 12:27 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
Quite so, Andy. But what concept is being used when someone refers to their "teacher", "manager" or "supervisor". These institutionalised terms have little to do with their authentic/innocent meanings. "Team lead" is surely on the way too, and presumably "mentor" is under assault (to the degree of its co-option in an institution). :)

Huw

On 24 November 2015 at 23:57, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite
    right in my view. I have always believed that the
    study of a word's etymology sheds light on the concept
    it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the
    genesis of the concept itself and its interconnections
    - puts the frame back into the movie.
    But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is
    the "true" meaning of the word (or other symbol or
    practice) is called "the genetic fallacy."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
    Andy
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    *Andy Blunden*
    http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
    On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:

        Now I am confused.  How could a word's meaning not
        have anything to do with
        etymology?  :)

        Huw

        On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole
        <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>> wrote:

            The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom.
            Kisli I immediately equated
            with sour. It was the kraut part that I was
            opaque. That part of my example
            had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife
            reminded me of it when I
            reported the first part.

            So complicated to communicate about such
            experiences. And of course open to
            multiple interpretations.  Still, I like
            mine...of course! :-)
            Mike

            On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson <
            tom.richardson3@googlemail.com
            <mailto:tom.richardson3@googlemail.com>> wrote:

                To butt in  again - surely 'sauer' also
                means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage?
                Tom
                Middlesbrough UK

                On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd
                <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
                <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
                <javascript:;>> wrote:

                    I wouldn't have thought that a prior
                    meaning blocks the path to the

                primary

                    meaning necessarily.  The norm, it
                    seems, is that we are unaware of the
                    etymological roots of words.  And that
                    unless one was practiced at
                    questioning the structure of the word
                    forms then a discovery is not

                really

                    blocked as so much as never sought in
                    the first place.  Personally, it
                    seems to me that when I enquire into
                    an etymological meaning and find

            it

                    consonant with a a more pervasive
                    (though little understood)

                understanding,

                    I take some temporary satisfaction in
                    one more accounting in the

                reckoning

                    against our stupid society.

                    As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could
                    say the same for the more
                    contemporary neo-liberal.  Both terms
                    point back to the speaker (and
                    artificer) of the word's confusions
                    and sour-grapes which are projected
                    onto the protagonist  -- such is war
                    and politics.

                    Huw










                    On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy
                    Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
                    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>

                <javascript:;>> wrote:

                        You've got a good head on your
                        shoulders, Mike!
                        andy
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        *Andy Blunden*
                        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
                        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>

                        On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole
                        wrote:

                            Oops, i should have proof read
                            before rushing off. here is a

            slightly

                            cleaner text. Same ideas. :-)
                            mike
                            -------------

                            Two paths of mediated thought
                            through three languages.



                            The topic arose because we
                            were eating an almost great
                            chiappino. I

                    said,

                            "Lets make that a part of the
                            repertoire and my mind drifted
                            to a

                search

                            for other soups I love, but
                            have not experienced in a long
                            time.

                "Shi,"

                    I

                            suggested. Shi is a soup made
                            from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"

                Sheila

                            replied. "I was think we
                            should find a Russian
                            restaurant that has

                good

                            shi," I responded. That way,
                            you could have something you
                            do like."

                    Then I

                            thought about the properties
                            of good shi and I code
                            switched into

                    Russian.

                            "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a
                            heavy emphasis on the word,
                            kisli, to
                            emphasize that is *sour *
                            kapusta in contrast with the
                            usual cabbage

                    soup,

                            or the kind of cabbage you
                            have in borscht. Then I thought to

            myself,

                            kisli-sour ..... oh, the
                            *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!



                            I remarked to Sheila that it
                            was remarkable that I had
                            somehow never
                            connected the word kraut, as
                            in sour kraut, with the word
                            cabbage,

                even

                            though it you asked me what
                            sour kraut was made of, I would of

            course

                    say

                            cabbage. Why did I have to
                            discover that kraut means
                            cabbage from
                            remembering the delicious
                            smell of schi?



                            My strong hunch is that the
                            answer lies with the fact that I

                experienced

                            WWII as a preschooler who
                            became obsessed with the war.
                            All during

            my

                            boyood I read countless
                            fictional and historical
                            accounts of the

            war.

                    The,

                            and in later years that war
                            was depicted over and over
                            again in

            films

                    from

                            the Guns of Navaronne to
                            Private Ryan's war in a manner
                            that fit

            with

                my

                            childhood image of WW II
                            German soldiers, the SS, the
                            Wermacht --
                            "krauts."
                            To me, the image of the word
                            kraut, seems to have retained this

                    primitive,

                            early, persistent, organizing
                            image.



                            Because the word, kraut, was
                            already occupied, when I
                            thought of

            shi,

                I

                            was, it seems, thinking
                            kisli/sour kapusta, without
                            incorporating

            the

                            knowledge that

                            kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage.



                            Odd how mediation works.

                            And odd too, that my name is
                            Cole.  If you look in the
                            dictionary

            for

                    the

                            definition of the word, cole,
                            you will find something like this:



                            "any plant belonging to the
                            genus Brassica, of the mustard
                            family,including many
                            economically important
                            vegetables, such as
                            *cabbage.*.......

                            On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16
                            PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
                            <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>

                <javascript:;>> wrote:

                            the following observations
                            might be of interest. I wonder
                            if others

                have

                                had similar experiences.
                                The dynamics of language
                                and the paths of
                                mediation seem to be clear
                                to me, but maybe that is
                                just an

            illusory

                                artifact of reporting on
                                introspective reports.

                                what, as Dr. Matusov is
                                fond of asking, do you think?
                                mike
                                --------------------------------------------
                                   Two paths of mediated
                                thought through three
                                languages.



                                The topic arose because we
                                were eating an almost
                                great chiappino. I

                    said,

                                "Lets make that a part of
                                the repetoir and my mind
                                drifted to a

                search

                                for
                                other soups I love, but
                                have not experienced in a
                                long time.

            "Shi," I

                                suggested. Shi is a soup
                                made from saurkraut. "I
                                don't like shi"

                Sheila

                                replied. "I was think we
                                should find a Russian
                                restaurant that has

                good

                                shi," I responded. That
                                way, you could have
                                something you do like."

                    Then

                                I
                                thought about the
                                properties of good shi and
                                I code switched into
                                Russian.
                                "Kisli kapusta, I said,
                                with a heavy emphasis on
                                the word, kisli,

            to

                                emphasize that is *sour *
                                kapusta in contrast with
                                the usual

            cabbage

                                soup, or the kind of
                                cabbage you have in
                                borscht. Then I thought to
                                myself,
                                kisli-sour ..... oh, the
                                *kraut *part of shi means
                                cabbage!



                                I remarked to Sheila that
                                it was remarkable that I
                                had somehow

            never

                                connected the word kraut,
                                as in sour kraut, with the
                                word cabbage,

                even

                                though it you asked me
                                what sour kraut was made
                                of, I would of

            course

                    say

                                cabbage. Why did I have to
                                discover that kraut means
                                cabbage from
                                remembering the delicious
                                smell of schi?



                                My strong hunch is that,
                                because I experienced WWII
                                as a

            preschooler

                    who

                                became obsessed with the
                                war. All during my boyood
                                I read fictional

                and

                                historical accounts of the
                                war. In later years that
                                war was

            depicted

                    over

                                and over again in films
                                from the Guns of Navarone
                                to Private Ryan's

                war

                                in
                                a manner that fit with my
                                childhood image of WW II
                                German soldiers,

                the

                                SS,
                                the Wermacht -- "krauts."
                                To me, the image of the
                                word kraut, seems

                to

                                have
                                retained this primitive,
                                early, persistent,
                                organizing image.



                                Because the word, kraut,
                                was already occupied, when
                                I thought of

                shi, I

                                was, it seems, thinking
                                kisli/sour kapusta,
                                without incorporating

            the

                                knowledge that

                                kapusta =kraut-->
                                kraut=cabbabe.



                                Odd how mediation works.

                                And odd too, that my name
                                is Cole.  If you look in
                                the dictionary

            for

                    the

                                definition of the word,
                                cole, you will find
                                something like this:




                                "any plant belonging to
                                the genus Brassica, of the
                                mustard
                                family,including many

                                economically important
                                vegetables, such as
                                *cabbage.*.......


                                ​darn!​



                                --

                                It is the dilemma of
                                psychology to deal as a
                                natural science with

            an

                                object that creates
                                history. Ernst Boesch





            --

            It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a
            natural science with an
            object that creates history. Ernst Boesch