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[Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three



Quite so, Andy.  But what concept is being used when someone refers to
their "teacher", "manager" or "supervisor".  These institutionalised terms
have little to do with their authentic/innocent meanings.  "Team lead" is
surely on the way too, and presumably "mentor" is under assault (to the
degree of its co-option in an institution).  :)

Huw

On 24 November 2015 at 23:57, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> "Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have
> always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the
> concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of
> the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the
> movie.
> But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of
> the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Now I am confused.  How could a word's meaning not have anything to do
>> with
>> etymology?  :)
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>> The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated
>>> with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my
>>> example
>>> had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I
>>> reported the first part.
>>>
>>> So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open
>>> to
>>> multiple interpretations.  Still, I like mine...of course! :-)
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson <
>>> tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> To butt in  again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage?
>>>> Tom
>>>> Middlesbrough UK
>>>>
>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the
>>>>>
>>>> primary
>>>>
>>>>> meaning necessarily.  The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the
>>>>> etymological roots of words.  And that unless one was practiced at
>>>>> questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not
>>>>>
>>>> really
>>>>
>>>>> blocked as so much as never sought in the first place.  Personally, it
>>>>> seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find
>>>>>
>>>> it
>>>
>>>> consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood)
>>>>>
>>>> understanding,
>>>>
>>>>> I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the
>>>>>
>>>> reckoning
>>>>
>>>>> against our stupid society.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more
>>>>> contemporary neo-liberal.  Both terms point back to the speaker (and
>>>>> artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected
>>>>> onto the protagonist  -- such is war and politics.
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike!
>>>>>> andy
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> slightly
>>>
>>>> cleaner text. Same ideas. :-)
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> said,
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> search
>>>>
>>>>> for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Shi,"
>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>>
>>>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> good
>>>>
>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I
>>>>>
>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russian.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to
>>>>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> soup,
>>>>>
>>>>>> or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> myself,
>>>
>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never
>>>>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> course
>>>
>>>> say
>>>>>
>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>
>>>>> WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> my
>>>
>>>> boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> war.
>>>
>>>> The,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> films
>>>
>>>> from
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> with
>>>
>>>> my
>>>>
>>>>> childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht --
>>>>>>> "krauts."
>>>>>>> To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> primitive,
>>>>>
>>>>>> early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> shi,
>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>> had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of
>>>>>>>> mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> illusory
>>>
>>>> artifact of reporting on introspective reports.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think?
>>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>    Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> said,
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> search
>>>>
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Shi," I
>>>
>>>> suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sheila
>>>>
>>>>> replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> good
>>>>
>>>>> shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then
>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
>>>>>>>> Russian.
>>>>>>>> "Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cabbage
>>>
>>>> soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
>>>>>>>> myself,
>>>>>>>> kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> never
>>>
>>>> connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>>> though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> course
>>>
>>>> say
>>>>>
>>>>>> cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
>>>>>>>> remembering the delicious smell of schi?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> preschooler
>>>
>>>> who
>>>>>
>>>>>> became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> depicted
>>>
>>>> over
>>>>>
>>>>>> and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> war
>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> SS,
>>>>>>>> the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> shi, I
>>>>
>>>>> was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> knowledge that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Odd how mediation works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
>>>>>>>> family,including many
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ​darn!​
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> an
>>>
>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>
>>>
>