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[Xmca-l] Re: Two paths of mediation, or perhaps three



"Not have anything to do with" would not be quite right in my view. I have always believed that the study of a word's etymology sheds light on the concept it names, but mainly because it brings into relief the genesis of the concept itself and its interconnections - puts the frame back into the movie. But to say that the "original" meaning of a word is the "true" meaning of the word (or other symbol or practice) is called "the genetic fallacy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 25/11/2015 9:11 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
Now I am confused.  How could a word's meaning not have anything to do with
etymology?  :)

Huw

On 24 November 2015 at 21:49, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

The word, pickle, never occurred to me, Tom. Kisli I immediately equated
with sour. It was the kraut part that I was opaque. That part of my example
had nothing to do with etymology, Huw. My wife reminded me of it when I
reported the first part.

So complicated to communicate about such experiences. And of course open to
multiple interpretations.  Still, I like mine...of course! :-)
Mike

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015, Tom Richardson <
tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote:

To butt in  again - surely 'sauer' also means 'acidic' - pickled cabbage?
Tom
Middlesbrough UK

On 24 November 2015 at 16:31, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
<javascript:;>> wrote:

I wouldn't have thought that a prior meaning blocks the path to the
primary
meaning necessarily.  The norm, it seems, is that we are unaware of the
etymological roots of words.  And that unless one was practiced at
questioning the structure of the word forms then a discovery is not
really
blocked as so much as never sought in the first place.  Personally, it
seems to me that when I enquire into an etymological meaning and find
it
consonant with a a more pervasive (though little understood)
understanding,
I take some temporary satisfaction in one more accounting in the
reckoning
against our stupid society.

As for (sauer)kraut, I think we could say the same for the more
contemporary neo-liberal.  Both terms point back to the speaker (and
artificer) of the word's confusions and sour-grapes which are projected
onto the protagonist  -- such is war and politics.

Huw










On 24 November 2015 at 06:17, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<javascript:;>> wrote:
You've got a good head on your shoulders, Mike!
andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/

On 24/11/2015 3:25 PM, mike cole wrote:

Oops, i should have proof read before rushing off. here is a
slightly
cleaner text. Same ideas. :-)
mike
-------------

Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.



The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
said,
"Lets make that a part of the repertoire and my mind drifted to a
search
for other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
"Shi,"
I
suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
Sheila
replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
good
shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
Then I
thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
Russian.
"Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli, to
emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual cabbage
soup,
or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
myself,
kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!



I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow never
connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
even
though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
course
say
cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
remembering the delicious smell of schi?



My strong hunch is that the answer lies with the fact that I
experienced
WWII as a preschooler who became obsessed with the war. All during
my
boyood I read countless fictional and historical accounts of the
war.
The,
and in later years that war was depicted over and over again in
films
from
the Guns of Navaronne to Private Ryan's war in a manner that fit
with
my
childhood image of WW II German soldiers, the SS, the Wermacht --
"krauts."
To me, the image of the word kraut, seems to have retained this
primitive,
early, persistent, organizing image.



Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
shi,
I
was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
the
knowledge that

kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbage.



Odd how mediation works.

And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
for
the
definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:



"any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
family,including many
economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:16 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
<javascript:;>> wrote:
the following observations might be of interest. I wonder if others
have
had similar experiences. The dynamics of language and the paths of
mediation seem to be clear to me, but maybe that is just an
illusory
artifact of reporting on introspective reports.

what, as Dr. Matusov is fond of asking, do you think?
mike
--------------------------------------------
   Two paths of mediated thought through three languages.



The topic arose because we were eating an almost great chiappino. I
said,
"Lets make that a part of the repetoir and my mind drifted to a
search
for
other soups I love, but have not experienced in a long time.
"Shi," I
suggested. Shi is a soup made from saurkraut. "I don't like shi"
Sheila
replied. "I was think we should find a Russian restaurant that has
good
shi," I responded. That way, you could have something you do like."
Then
I
thought about the properties of good shi and I code switched into
Russian.
"Kisli kapusta, I said, with a heavy emphasis on the word, kisli,
to
emphasize that is *sour * kapusta in contrast with the usual
cabbage
soup, or the kind of cabbage you have in borscht. Then I thought to
myself,
kisli-sour ..... oh, the *kraut *part of shi means cabbage!



I remarked to Sheila that it was remarkable that I had somehow
never
connected the word kraut, as in sour kraut, with the word cabbage,
even
though it you asked me what sour kraut was made of, I would of
course
say
cabbage. Why did I have to discover that kraut means cabbage from
remembering the delicious smell of schi?



My strong hunch is that, because I experienced WWII as a
preschooler
who
became obsessed with the war. All during my boyood I read fictional
and
historical accounts of the war. In later years that war was
depicted
over
and over again in films from the Guns of Navarone to Private Ryan's
war
in
a manner that fit with my childhood image of WW II German soldiers,
the
SS,
the Wermacht -- "krauts." To me, the image of the word kraut, seems
to
have
retained this primitive, early, persistent, organizing image.



Because the word, kraut, was already occupied, when I thought of
shi, I
was, it seems, thinking kisli/sour kapusta, without incorporating
the
knowledge that

kapusta =kraut--> kraut=cabbabe.



Odd how mediation works.

And odd too, that my name is Cole.  If you look in the dictionary
for
the
definition of the word, cole, you will find something like this:




"any plant belonging to the genus Brassica, of the mustard
family,including many

economically important vegetables, such as *cabbage.*.......


​darn!​



--

It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch





--

It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch