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[Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
- To: Lplarry <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <email@example.com>, "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com>
- Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
- From: Lplarry <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:09:38 -0800
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One further thought.
When Michael White uses the concept *scaffolding* he is marking a place of Bruner's 1st order voice. It is a mis-step to refer scaffolding to vygotsky (which is 2nd order voice).
As Bruner searched for a concept he imagined a scaffold and it was his 1st order voice that was the magic bringing this image to sociality.
From: "Lplarry" <email@example.com>
Sent: 2015-11-02 8:02 PM
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <firstname.lastname@example.org>; "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
The question of reading vygotsky's own words (1st voice) in contrast with reading others interpretations of vygotsky's 1st order voice is the shift to 2nd order voice ( the reflective ABOUT voice).
In this months journal we will be exploring Kim Skinner's article. I am also referring to another article in this months journal written by Kym Maclaren titled *The Magic Happens Inside Out*
This article captures the radically different *experience* of encountering (and undergoing) *first order voice* in contrast to *second order voice* (the about voice).
I believe Maclaren is indicating (MARKING) a profound shift in character of voice that is moving from a place of "unknowing" 1st order voice which opens to sociality in contrast to the 2nd order voice which expresses what was previously spoken within 1st order voice.
I am now *marking* out a space within THIS particular dialogical thread as an encounter that may or may not be noticed or accepted as an invitation. It is not in the form of a dis-pute.
This is not a place of *discovery* (which implies it was already given and is now being revealed).
This is not a place of *construction* implying designs and blueprints to bring into form what has been pre-conceived and designed.
The quality of 1st order voice is a quality of genesis (birth) of something novel within what is given.
Something emerging into our *situations* (spaces of sociality).
Kym Maclaren's article expresses the *magic* of this space when she portrays prison inmates and university students sharing a project exploring the magic of 1st order voice that transfigures philosophy, psychology, and pedagogy.
The intent of this months journal is to open a place for (and) of creative passionate dialogical 1st order voices
The intent is to create a particular quality and character OF *experience*
From: Nektarios Alexi
Sent: 2015-11-02 6:03 PM
To: email@example.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
I have just finished reading the article of Vasilyuk "An Historical-Methodological Analysis
of Psychotherapeutic Reliances"
This article is clearly an apologetical article of a deep Christian orthodox believer and practitioner and I think it can only make sense to readers that have some background in the readings of the Fathers of the Church and more specifically the collection of texts of Philokallia which is the summit of the experience of the Christian hermits and ascets of Eastern christianity.
>From the notes at the end of the article:
10. “‘The doctrine of theosis is the central topic of Byzantine theology
and the entire experience of Eastern Christianity’ (Archbishop Vasil). . . .
The doctrine of Theosis is the most maximalist and audacious ‘religious
ideal’ that can be imagined” (Khoruzhii, 1995, pp. 123–24).
Otherwise the main point of this article it might make absolutely no sense.
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [email@example.com] on behalf of Andy Blunden [firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 10:29 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
So we have seen how the work of "Chinese whispers" can
substitute for interpretation, Alex.
I doubt if any English speaker, who cannot read Russian,
could possibly gain an idea of what Vygotsky meant by
"perezhivanie" on the basis of English translations of
The make-do translation of "lived experience" only serves to
convince people that they need enquire no further.
Perezhivanie is a word in the Russian language however, so
however Vygotsky integrated the concept into his theory, the
concept does exist in Russian culture, and is available for
Vasilyuk and others to use.
On 3/11/2015 10:18 AM, Nektarios Alexi wrote:
> Hi Andy,
> It might be that only now after trying to read and
> understand Vygotsky's work for the last 4 years I might
> started having a sense what perezhivanie really is (so it
> might be that firstly I am shocked by realizing the depth
> and breath of this russian word) by reading Vasilyuk
> commentaries. Also I am talking from the perspective of
> many Australians, so call postmodern psychotherapists or
> otherwise call narrative psychotherapists, that their main
> teacher was Michael White, who claims in his books that he
> uses Vygotsky's idea of scaffolding to help people to
> restructure their narratives and as a consequence of that
> to overcome their mental health issues. I do not think
> that the way Vasilyuk understands Vygotsky has any
> simillarity with the way that many narrative
> psychotherapists might have understood Vygotsky, so I
> think for any postmodern thinker who claims to be a
> follower of Vygotsky it might be a bit shocking to read
> how Vasilyuk interprets many of the basic concepts of
> Vygotsky's work.
> Best Wishes,
> *From:* Andy Blunden [email@example.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, 2 November 2015 9:44 PM
> *To:* Nektarios Alexi; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity;
> Annalisa Aguilar
> *Subject:* Re: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
> The long trail of spaces at the end of the URL may cause
> people to get a bad link, Alex.
> Try http://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176
> Why do you say Vasilyuk gives such a *shocking*
> perspective on perezhivanie, Alex?
> *Andy Blunden*
> On 2/11/2015 10:20 PM, Nektarios Alexi wrote:
>> Attach is the article that is locked. I have only read the first article from the list and hoping to read the other two by tomorrow sometime. I have a sense that Vasilyuk work is a good answer against the postmodern attitude of many psychotherapists and counsellors today and especially in Australia. Is funny though that narrative therapists in Australia and especially Michael White was thinking that is applying Vygotsky's ideas in his work (i don't think he ever read his work properly). Vasilyuk I think is shocking by giving such an unexpected perspective to the word *perezhivanie*. Another shocking perspective of Vygotsky and against the postmodern attitudes of many psychotherapists today comes from the Thesis of Levykh Michael where he gives an amazing description of the word (leachnost) which the english translation is personality.
>> Find his thesis in the following linkhttp://summit.sfu.ca/item/9176________________________________________
>> Best Wishes,
>> From:firstname.lastname@example.org [email@example.com] on behalf of Andy Blunden [firstname.lastname@example.org]
>> Sent: Monday, 2 November 2015 7:49 PM
>> To: Annalisa Aguilar; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
>> The article I am referring to is at
>> People might be interested in the concept of
>> "psychotherapeutic reliance" for example.
>> The reliance is the process within the patient which the
>> therapist relies upon to resolve the problem, thus
>> separating the technique used by the therapist from the
>> process within the subject which is being relied upon in
>> designing the technique.
>> In pre-Freudian days when the method was hypnosis, the
>> reliance is *suggestibility*.
>> FOr Freudian psychotherapy, the reliance is *awareness*.
>> For Psychodrama, the reliance is *spontaneity*.
>> For Behavioural Therapy, the reliance is *learning*.
>> For Vasilyuk's "Co-experiencing" therapy the reliance is
>> *perezhivanie*, and he goes on to describe the main
>> characteristics of perezhivanie.
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