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[Xmca-l] Re: Over or excess involvement of parent - ZPD

How do we know that fingering is NOT a complex psychological function in the development of ability on the piano? 
With respect,
> On Sep 21, 2015, at 4:34 PM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tend to answer your question in the affirmative David, I think that,
> while working alone, the child has the opportunity to think, s/he is
> allowed to think, to evaluate, s/he is free to do so while with parent,
> s/he is constrained to do the best possible. And I think that to be able to
> think makes the child nearer to musicality.
> And this during the lesson with the teacher also that more musicality or
> attention to musicality is paid.
> For the difference btw bike, golf and piano and writing, may it be too much
> speculative if I hypothesize that the latter seem to be more specifically
> or closely, intensely related with neural substrates.
> On 22 September 2015 at 00:57, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Ulvi:
>> Well, the literature I've read is contradictory. On the one hand, there is
>> that famous Brazilian study on building model farms. One group was
>> "scaffolded" by their parents and the other by skilled elementary school
>> teachers. The parents tended to elbow the children aside and make the
>> models themselves (so as not to waste the precious clay), but the teachers
>> tended to stand back and let the kids have a go. The result was that the
>> teacher scaffolded group attained much higher levels of self-regulation.
>> In contrast, Askew et al notes that teachers who are quite skillful at
>> scaffolding their own children at home do not actually use scaffolding
>> strategies in the classroom (because of time pressure and the presence of
>> too many different learners with different needs). The assumption is that
>> delicate scaffolding is an effective strategy. Something similar appears
>> when we look at "scaffolding" research in foreign language learning--the
>> more delicate the scaffolding, the more effective it is, whatever that
>> means.
>> Vygotsky, however, is not contradictory at all. Even in the famous passage
>> on p. 86, he is very offhand and casual about the different strategies
>> which can be used in teaching (leading questions, starting solutions, doing
>> demonstrations) and treats the degrees of freedom in collaboration as an
>> empirical problem, to be worked out on a case by case basis. He even points
>> out that a child at home who remembers the way that a teacher solved a math
>> problem on the board and uses it to solve a problem is "in collaboration".
>> See also his use of different kinds of "introvolution" at the end of
>> Chapter Five of HDHMF.
>> But--here's MY question. Vygotsky often contrasts particular physical
>> skills (bike riding, playing golf, type-writing) to psychological
>> development, and he makes it very clear that the former play no part in the
>> zone of proximal development, at least for the school age child, because
>> they are not developmental. On the other hand, he also compares learning to
>> play the piano with learning to write, where finger skills do not play a
>> part in the zone of proximal development, but the psychological functions
>> involved in musical and literary awareness do.
>> Instead of considering that what happens when the child works alone is a
>> change in the source and the quality of motivation, couldn't we say that
>> what happens is that the child is able to get beyond a fixation on
>> fingering and understand music as a complex psychological function?
>> David Kellogg
>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 6:08 AM, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry, at the very end, it should have been, lack of onset of the
>>> functioning...
>>> On 22 September 2015 at 00:04, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Life and new trials and experiences may have the potential for
>>>> illimunating certain facts otherwise staying unresolved.
>>>> Suppose that a parent supports his child for piano lessons at home. The
>>>> child, unlike other,needed a lot of parent support until then to
>> succeed
>>> in
>>>> conservatory and the parent always though that without him/her, the
>> child
>>>> is not able to remember teacher's latest lesson's directives, to apply
>>> them
>>>> etc.
>>>> But this means that the child finds every time the parent besides him
>>>> during lessons at home (even the parent takes not during the lesson
>> with
>>>> teacher) and the child is used to be reminded by the parent for the
>> most
>>>> critical things to be newly learned.
>>>> The lesson before the last one is not so successful. Until that lesson
>>> the
>>>> child and the parent worked again together. So many mistakes on the
>> part
>>> of
>>>> the child.
>>>> But then, at return at home, they decide the child works on his own for
>>>> three days. Then the new lesson with teacher takes place. Zero parent
>>>> involvement.
>>>> Then, this same passage is very well done and appreciated by the
>> teacher
>>>> and the teacher says, is this the same child, do you have another
>>> identical
>>>> one at home.
>>>> *
>>>> So, my hypothesis is that, with such an excessinve parent involvement,
>>> who
>>>> does not possess confidence in the child to study appropriately, the
>>> child
>>>> may be chained and the process of  developing his potential with adult
>>> may
>>>> turn to a lack of opportunity to develop his potential on his own,
>> which
>>>> may be quite harmful for the child.
>>>> May this hypothesis verified: when working with the parent, the child
>>>> hands over his attention ability to the adult, he shares this ability
>>> with
>>>> him, he delivers himself to the adult and is unable to take any
>>> initiative,
>>>> is not the manager of the learning process.
>>>> But, as soon as the parent goes out, he knows that he is the sole
>>>> responsible for his own learning process and pays much more attention
>> to
>>>> what he does, makes maximum effort to learn during the lesson with the
>>>> teacher, and to remember at home what the teacher taught during the
>>> lesson.
>>>> In this case, I think the mistake on the part of the parent is the
>> onset
>>>> of the functioning of self regulation during learning process.
>>>> Does this over or excess involvement make any sense, or a place in the
>>>> literature?
>>>> Ulvi