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[Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again

Final post for now… Csikszentmihalyi’s work with adolescents is also very
interesting in terms of thinking about ‘flow’ experiences and relationship
to motivation, life trajectories and so on.


On 23/08/2015 11:04 am, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sue and Larry,
>Nice! “Life trajectory”, as Sue puts it, so much better than “stage of
>development”. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of “resilence”
>in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending,
>undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts.
>It’s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month’s
>Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi
>Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the
>streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black
>body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his
>light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite
>the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and
>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sue,
>> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration.
>> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of
>>whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality".
>> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences
>>which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic
>>experiences are:
>> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went
>>before and what comes after.
>> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what
>>shall be organized into the "developing experience"
>> * we drift
>> *we yield, evade, compromise
>> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and
>> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on
>> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an"
>> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose
>>succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no
>>particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction,
>>proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one
>> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be
>>taken as norms of ALL experience.
>>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its
>>>qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal
>>>anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in
>>>opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience.
>> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's
>>concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue
>>and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics
>>belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its
>> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject
>>matter" that is undergone.
>> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads
>>to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional?
>> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in
>>a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an
>>anesthetic character.
>> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our
>>lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an"
>>experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of
>>lives of virtue.
>> Larry
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Susan Davis" <s.davis@cqu.edu.au>
>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 4:36 PM
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again
>> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey’s concept of
>> ‘art as experience’- but this type of experience is also characterised
>> fulfilment and integration…  although that may not be the same as
>> perezhivanie… see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests
>> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well…
>> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and
>> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person’s developmental
>> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she
>> talked about a ‘stream of experiences’. I think Beth F has previously
>> talked of a ‘chain of experiences’.
>> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature
>> and environing conditions is involved
>> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and
>> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in
>> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious
>> intent
>> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are
>> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ‘an'
>> experience. 
>> …. In contrast with such experience,we have ‘an' experience when the
>> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only
>> it
>> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience
>> other
>> experiences…Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own
>> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency."
>> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37)
>> Cheers
>> Sue
>> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is
>>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes,
>>> obliterates. I don’t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be
>>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at
>>> “stages” of development.
>>> Henry
>>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion
>>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All
>>>> the
>>>> main characters are there.
>>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by
>>>> Wierzbicka?
>>>> mike
>>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>>> Lubomir,
>>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning
>>>>> to
>>>>> perezhivanie.
>>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the
>>>>> "character" of experience.
>>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also
>>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a
>>>>> KEY
>>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of
>>>>> communication/consciousness.
>>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling
>>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" <lspopov@bgsu.edu>
>>>>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 10:51 AM
>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Perezhivanie, again
>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It
>>>>> too
>>>>> much of a stretch.
>>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root
>>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of
>>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation,
>>>>> although I am not sure how close it is.
>>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life
>>>>> experience.
>>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and
>>>>> emotions,
>>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say
>>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of
>>>>> katarzis
>>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should
>>>>> not be
>>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie.
>>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to
>>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming
>>>>> something,
>>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of
>>>>> something,
>>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations
>>>>> and
>>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my
>>>>> shape about that.
>>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it
>>>>> is
>>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides,
>>>>> the
>>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of
>>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for
>>>>> English
>>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we
>>>>> can
>>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I
>>>>> remember
>>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national
>>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that.
>>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life
>>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> Lubomir
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place
>>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience".
>>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which  opens a door
>>>>> the
>>>>> "creative" Process of art forms .
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Robert Lake" <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
>>>>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 10:10 AM
>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place
>>>>> Thanks  Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching
>>>>> it.
>>>>> RL
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you!
>>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method,
>>>>>> and , of course,  the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just
>>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century
>>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house
>>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John
>>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of
>>>>>> lived experience Who couldn’t love the guy? And they fired him!
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake
>>>>>>> <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th
>>>>>>> ​e program linked below​
>>>>>>> are worth watching
>>>>>>> ​ because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and
>>>>>>> reveal
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write.
>>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an
>>>>>>> autographed
>>>>>>> photo
>>>>>>> ​ of himself​
>>>>>>> ​after​
>>>>>>> ​Kozol​
>>>>>>> was fired
>>>>>>> ​ from his first teaching job​
>>>>>>> for reading one of
>>>>>>> ​Hughes'​
>>>>>>> poems in a high school English class.
>>>>>>> ​
>>>>>>> ​Kozol​
>>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ​d​ and ​ he
>>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew?​*
>>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books.
>>>>>>> Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>>>>>>> Associate Professor
>>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education
>>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern
>>>>>>> University
>>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O.
>>>>>>> Box 8144
>>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
>>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
>>>>>>> Statesboro, GA  30460
>>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964).
>>>> -- 
>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch