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[Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again



Final post for now… Csikszentmihalyi’s work with adolescents is also very
interesting in terms of thinking about ‘flow’ experiences and relationship
to motivation, life trajectories and so on.

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED395261
https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Being_Adolescent.html?id=8SKKPXimP0
AC&redir_esc=y 
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=UKcKqT4rgRUC&source=gbs_similarbooks

On 23/08/2015 11:04 am, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sue and Larry,
>Nice! “Life trajectory”, as Sue puts it, so much better than “stage of
>development”. I wonder how Dewey would have found the talk of “resilence”
>in teaching and learning. That would form a cluster with bending,
>undergoing. Martial arts such as Tai Chi, rather than mixed martial arts.
>It’s a rough world out there, especially for some of us. This month’s
>Atlantic magazine has a wonderful essay by African-American Ta-Nahisi
>Coats, which is a letter to his teen-age son on how to navigate the
>streets of a nation state based so firmly on the subjugation of the Black
>body. The fear, even terror, that Ta-Nahisi feels for his
>light-of-his-life son is palpable. No anesthetic there. Ta-Nahis, despite
>the fear, counsels open-eyed struggle. Much resonance with Dewey and
>Vygotsky.
>Henry
>
>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 6:38 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Sue,
>> To stay with the "character" of fulfillment and integration.
>> I was struck by Dewey's characterization that " no experience of
>>whatever sort is a UNITY unless it has aesthetic quality".
>> 
>> Dewey also introduces the characteristics of non-aesthetic experiences
>>which he names ANESTHETIC experiences. The qualities of anesthetic
>>experiences are:
>> *Not concerned with the connection of one incident with what went
>>before and what comes after.
>> *No interest that controls attentive rejection or selection OF what
>>shall be organized into the "developing experience"
>> * we drift
>> *we yield, evade, compromise
>> *there are beginnings and cessations but no genuine initiations and
>>concludings
>> *one thing replaces another but does not absorb it and carry it on
>> * there is experience but so slack and discursive that it is not "an"
>>experience.
>> * the anesthetic lies between two poles - at one pole the loose
>>succession that does not begin at any particular place and ceases at no
>>particular place. - at the other pole is arrest, constriction,
>>proceeding from parts having only a MECHANICAL connection with one
>>another
>> *there is so much of these anesthetic experiences that they come to be
>>taken as norms of ALL experience.
>>> From this "norm" aesthetic experience is seen as so special in its
>>>qualities it is placed OUTSIDE the place and status of normal
>>>anesthetic experience. These anesthetic experiences are DEVIATIONS in
>>>opposite directions FROM the UNITY of "an" experience.
>> 
>> Sue, Dewey then links VIRTUE to the aesthetic by invoking Aristotle's
>>concept of the "mean proportional" as what is distinctive of both virtue
>>and the aesthetic. The "mean proportion" has the characteristics
>>belonging to "an" experience that has a DEVELOPING MOVEMENT towards its
>>OWN CONSUMMATION.
>> 
>> I would add that this consummation occurs within a particular "subject
>>matter" that is undergone.
>> 
>> Every aesthetic integral experience is NOT "provisional" and this leads
>>to the question if our lives are becoming more provisional?
>> I think our growing inability to make a "wager" and invest our lives in
>>a particular direction may be a symptom of living lives that have an
>>anesthetic character.
>> This may also be why we are drawn to characters and contexts where our
>>lives are wagered and therefore have the character of having an"
>>experience. There narratives remind us of the distinctive quality of
>>lives of virtue.
>> Larry
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Susan Davis" <s.davis@cqu.edu.au>
>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 4:36 PM
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Perezhivanie, again
>> 
>> Both creativity and struggle were certainly part of Dewey’s concept of
>> ‘art as experience’- but this type of experience is also characterised
>>by
>> fulfilment and integration…  although that may not be the same as
>> perezhivanie… see the second sentence of the quote below which suggests
>> elements of opit (work/life experience) as well…
>> 
>> Is it also about those experiences that stand out from the everyday and
>> then may impact upon and gain significance in a person’s developmental
>> trajectory? In that Neiddu article on Mead that Larry Purss posted, she
>> talked about a ‘stream of experiences’. I think Beth F has previously
>> talked of a ‘chain of experiences’.
>> 
>> 
>> "Experience occurs continuously,because the interaction of live creature
>> and environing conditions is involved
>> in the very process of living. Under conditions of resistance and
>>conflict,
>> aspects and elements of the self and the world that are implicated in
>>this
>> interaction qualify experience with emotions and ideas so that conscious
>> intent
>> emerges. Oftentimes, however, the experience had is inchoate. Things are
>> experienced but not in such a way that they are composed into ‘an'
>> experience. 
>> …. In contrast with such experience,we have ‘an' experience when the
>> material experienced runs its course to fulfilment. Then, and then only
>>is
>> it
>> integrated within and demarcated in the general stream of experience
>>from
>> other
>> experiences…Such an experience is a whole and carries with it is own
>> individualizing quality and self-sufficiency."
>> (Dewey 1934, p. 36-37)
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Sue
>> 
>> On 23/08/2015 9:09 am, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Would it be fair to say that perezhvanie refers to something that is
>>>both
>>> difficult and creative? A crisis, perhaps, but not one that crushes,
>>> obliterates. I don’t mean triumphalism here. And the resolution can be
>>>a
>>> long time coming. Even constant food for thought and feeling at
>>>different
>>> “stages” of development.
>>> Henry
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 22, 2015, at 1:30 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, indeed, Larry. For anyone who finds this line of discussion
>>>> interesting, I recommend *The metaphysical club* by Louis Menand. All
>>>> the
>>>> main characters are there.
>>>> 
>>>> pere words are fascinating. Perhaps this issue has been taken up by
>>>>Anna
>>>> Wierzbicka?
>>>> mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Lubomir,
>>>>> This explanation is very clear and I appreciate your returning
>>>>>"again"
>>>>> to
>>>>> perezhivanie.
>>>>> With each "again" we further differentiate (and therefore relate) the
>>>>> "character" of experience.
>>>>> Mike, the pro/ject of clarifying pere type notions (which is also
>>>>> therefore a relating) seems to be circling around what is be/coming a
>>>>> KEY
>>>>> concern that is being being lifted out of the stream of
>>>>> communication/consciousness.
>>>>> It seems Mead and Dewey and James and Peirce were also circling
>>>>>around
>>>>> pere phenomena as can be "seen" in their essays.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Lubomir Savov Popov" <lspopov@bgsu.edu>
>>>>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 10:51 AM
>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l]  Perezhivanie, again
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Larry,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Essay is a very situational translation of perezhivanie or opit. It
>>>>>is
>>>>> too
>>>>> much of a stretch.
>>>>> 
>>>>> By the way, the root of perezhivanie is zhiv which is also the root
>>>>>for
>>>>> life, live, and anything that is derived from them. In this line of
>>>>> thought, "lived experience" might be the closest English translation,
>>>>> although I am not sure how close it is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pereshivanie presupposes life experience, but not every life
>>>>> experience.
>>>>> It refers only to experience that involves a lot of feelings and
>>>>> emotions,
>>>>> as well as some kind of rethinking of that situation (I would not say
>>>>> reflection because it is a much stronger category). The study of
>>>>> katarzis
>>>>> can shed light here, although katarzis is an extreme case and should
>>>>> not be
>>>>> a required condition for perezhivanie.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pere- is a prefix that modifies a verb or another part of speech to
>>>>> emphasize a process, action, transforming something, overcoming
>>>>> something,
>>>>> passing through something in space, indicating an extra level of
>>>>> something,
>>>>> and so on. It means too many different things in different situations
>>>>> and
>>>>> words. Maybe someone else will help here. Right now I am not in my
>>>>>best
>>>>> shape about that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Google translate is helpless in translating perezhivanie, although it
>>>>> is
>>>>> very good for ordinal numbers and some the names of animals. Besides,
>>>>> the
>>>>> translation of perezhivanie should start with the clarification of
>>>>>the
>>>>> Russian concept (which is a hell of a time) and then searching for
>>>>> English
>>>>> word that is very close to it. If there are no English words, than we
>>>>> can
>>>>> just use it as it is. There are many such examples in English. I
>>>>> remember
>>>>> that the mas media do not translate the word for the Afgan national
>>>>> assembly and use the local word Ghirga or something like that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Opit is easy to translate in English. It is work experience, life
>>>>> experience, . More or less, and some people might even say, almost
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lubomir
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>>>> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of
>>>>>Lplarry
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2015 1:18 PM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place
>>>>> 
>>>>> Another "link" back to "opyt" as "experience".
>>>>> One trans/lation I found of "opyt" is "essay" which  opens a door
>>>>>into
>>>>> the
>>>>> "creative" Process of art forms .
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Robert Lake" <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
>>>>> Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎22 10:10 AM
>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Kozol's writing place
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks  Henry. I kept thinking of Vera's book as well I was watching
>>>>> it.
>>>>> RL
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2015 1:04 PM, "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>> The whole half hour interview is worth a whole lot! Thank you!
>>>>>>Things
>>>>>> I especially liked: His sharing of the artifacts, his messy method,
>>>>>> and , of course,  the place where he writes.( Larry Purss just
>>>>>>shared
>>>>>> an article on Meade that cites the trascendetalists of 19th Century
>>>>>> America, who I associate with the very kind of New England house
>>>>>>where
>>>>>> Kozol writes.) All of the interview reminded me of Vera John
>>>>>>Steiner’s
>>>>>> Notebooks of the Mind on the creative process. And the importance of
>>>>>> lived experience Who couldn’t love the guy? And they fired him!
>>>>>> Henry
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Robert Lake
>>>>>>> <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>> The first 12 minutes of th
>>>>>>> ​e program linked below​
>>>>>>> are worth watching
>>>>>>> ​ because shed light on Kozol's creative process of writing and
>>>>>>> reveal
>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> of the sources of his inspiration to write.
>>>>>>> Langston Hughes sent Kozol an
>>>>>>> autographed
>>>>>>> photo
>>>>>>> ​ of himself​
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ​after​
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ​Kozol​
>>>>>>> was fired
>>>>>>> ​ from his first teaching job​
>>>>>>> for reading one of
>>>>>>> ​Hughes'​
>>>>>>> poems in a high school English class.
>>>>>>> ​
>>>>>>> ​Kozol​
>>>>>>> says reading Rilke, Yeats and Auden are his soul foo ​d​ and ​ he
>>>>>>> was also a personal friend of Mister Rogers.* Who knew?​*
>>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?288596-2/jonathan-kozol-writing-books.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>>>>>>> Associate Professor
>>>>>>> Social Foundations of Education
>>>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern
>>>>>>> University
>>>>>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P. O.
>>>>>>> Box 8144
>>>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
>>>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
>>>>>>> Statesboro, GA  30460
>>>>>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> 
>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>
>