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[Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games



Laughter as an index of fun seems right, David. The origins of laughter are
very early in human ontogeny.... not sure how early.

The Calvin and Hobbes were very helpful -- as well as being fun.

mike

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
wrote:

> Thanks Rolf - Calvin and Hobbes was a lot of fun, but not play.   A little
> later I am going to go play basketball with a lot of people who are better
> than me - which is play but often not a whole lot of fun.
>
> And life goes on.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Rolf Steier
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:07 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games
>
> Some insight from Calvin and Hobbes (series of 3 strips)...
>
> [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 4]
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:05 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees
> > so impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and
> > Speech), remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not
> > the only species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked
> > used to offer food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat
> > it, they would pull the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing
> > sound, which Koehler interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches
> > elementary school children having fun notices almost right away that
> > one of the most elementary forms of fun is not at all collusion
> > between subversives against the higher powers but precisely the
> > opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and aggrandizement
> > precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, who offer
> "fun" with impunity.
> >
> > So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop
> > (and actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought
> > imaginary situations and abstract rules represented developmentally
> > higher forms of play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of
> > "self parody". That is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one
> > of the few really reliable sources might be making fun of yourself.
> > Self-directed fun then becomes something like self-directed speech,
> > something that is internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or
> even an imaginary self.
> >
> > But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've
> > been watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment
> > windows in Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge
> > fireball that was both immediately lethal to over a hundred people and
> > toxic to countless others in the long term. The cell phone videos
> > always have sound tracks filled with laughter and obscenities (in both
> > Chinese and English--some were made by locals and some by
> > expatriates). And the sort of things that people exclaim when they are
> > having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the apartment window and
> there is blood everywhere.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and
> > > fun
> > are
> > > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery
> > > and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we
> > > enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that
> > > seemingly rigid
> > rules
> > > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is
> > > a
> > kind
> > > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun
> > > listed
> > in
> > > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people
> > > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful
> > > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the
> 'loosening'
> > > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves
> > > to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can
> > > build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of
> > > trust between
> > the
> > > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing
> > > and 'making fun OF' someone.
> > >
> > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part
> > > in the negative connotations usually now associated with
> > > 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially
> > > safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous
> > > because they encourage each
> > other
> > > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may
> > > be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Rod
> > >
> > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a
> > > leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental
> > > psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not
> > > know who does.
> > >
> > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to
> > > still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it.
> > >
> > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized
> > > in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with
> > > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg.
> > >
> > > A tangled web, me thinks.
> > >
> > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the
> > > two domains, however they turn out to be constituted.
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That's great, Robert.
> > >
> > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between
> > Russian
> > > and English.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake <
> > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED.
> > > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution.
> > > > See below.
> > > > *Robert*
> > > >
> > > > *Oxford English Dictionary*
> > > >
> > > > *Etymology:*  probably < fun *v.*
> > > > <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75468#eid3558958>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > †*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke.
> > > >
> > > > 1699   B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew*   *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery
> > Trick.
> > > >
> > > > 1719   in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259   A Hackney Coachman he did
> > buy
> > > > her, And was not this a very good Fun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *2.*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or
> > gaiety,
> > > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or
> > > > pleasure.(Johnson
> > 1755
> > > > stigmatizes it as ‘a low cant word’; in present use it is merely
> > somewhat
> > > > familiar.)
> > > >
> > > > 1727   Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words*   Tho' he talk'd much of virtue,
> > his
> > > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1749   H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354   Partridge..was a
> > great
> > > > Lover of what is called Fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1751   E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3,   Don't mind me tho'— For
> all
> > > my
> > > > Fun and Jokes.
> > > >
> > > > 1767   H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99   Vindex..looked smilingly
> > about
> > > > him with much fun in his face.
> > > >
> > > > *a*1774   A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10
>  It
> > is
> > > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue.
> > > >
> > > > 1790   R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561
> >  The
> > > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious.
> > > >
> > > > 1836   Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7   ‘What's the fun?’
> said
> > a
> > > > rather tall thin young man.
> > > >
> > > > 1845   S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90   His wit and humour delightful, when
> > it
> > > > does not degenerate into ‘fun’.
> > > >
> > > > 1849   E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331   Being better
> > > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of
> > > > the
> > > fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1887   M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325   Most footballers play
> > for
> > > > the fun and the fun alone.
> > > >
> > > > 1889   J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42   There is no fun in doing
> > nothing
> > > > when you have nothing to do.
> > > >
> > > > 1891   S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50,   I do not see
> the
> > > fun
> > > > of going to hotels of the first class.
> > > >
> > > > 1934   *Punch* 9 May 526/1   A Rector in an unapostolic fury is
> rather
> > > fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1954   *Economist* 20 Mar.   His book has all the charm of science
> > > fiction;
> > > > it is enormous fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1958   *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1   The clothes were Jacobean, and fun
> > to
> > > > wear.
> > > >
> > > > *(Hide quotations)*
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f
> > alse
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to
> > > > ridicule. *for or in
> > > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good,
> > > > great
> > > fun*
> > > > :
> > > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very
> > > > quickly, vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of
> the thing*:
> > for
> > > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to
> > > > have sexual intercourse.
> > > >
> > > > 1737   H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17,   I can't help making fun of
> > > > myself.
> > > >
> > > > 1826   M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247   Then you
> > > won't
> > > > make fun of me, will you?
> > > >
> > > > 1834   S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24   They put
> their
> > > > hats on and began to laugh like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1840   T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145   The American..in a dry way began to
> > ‘poke
> > > > his fun’ at the unfortunate traveller.
> > > >
> > > > 1848   J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98   Stickin'
> together
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1848   E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73   Carsons' mill is
> blazing
> > > away
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1849   E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29   You would be very
> > sorry
> > > if
> > > > your mamma was to..break it for fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1857   T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273   The bolts
> > went
> > > to
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1860   T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82   Who
> knows
> > > but
> > > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount
> > > > guard
> > > over
> > > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ‘What fun!’
> > > >
> > > > 1871   B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145   He may pretend in fun
> > > that
> > > > he has a bad memory.
> > > >
> > > > 1876   M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104   The races are great fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1877   *Independent* 19 July 15/2   Little Tad commissioned
> lieutenant
> > by
> > > > Stanton, ‘just for the fun of the thing’.
> > > >
> > > > 1891   N. Gould *Double Event* 1   He's such good fun, and he's so
> > > > obliging.
> > > >
> > > > 1893   J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2   *To have* (or
> > > *do*)
> > > > *a
> > > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour.
> > > >
> > > > 1895   H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331,   I suppose the
> > > wood-carver
> > > > was poking fun at him?
> > > >
> > > > 1903   M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425   Amateur
> mimes..go
> > in
> > > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing.
> > > >
> > > > 1958   *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4   The clerks..get their own
> back
> > > by
> > > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French
> > > commercial
> > > > honesty.
> > > >
> > > > 1961   M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198   Ambrosia had pushed
> Edgar
> > > and
> > > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears.
> > > >
> > > > *(Hide quotations)*
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f
> > alse
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used
> > > > ironically;
> > > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.*
> > > >
> > > > 1879   W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51   We..had a good passage to
> > > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had
> > broken
> > > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly
> > > > had
> > > with
> > > > the Chinkies.
> > > >
> > > > 1897   *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1   The engineer officers who are
> > engaged
> > > in
> > > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their
> > > > fair
> > > share
> > > > of ‘the fun’.
> > > >
> > > > 1898   *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1   It is possible that there may be
> > rare
> > > > fun by-and-by on the Nile.
> > > >
> > > > 1920   ‘Sapper’ *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155   We've had lots of fun
> and
> > > > games since I last saw you.
> > > >
> > > > 1940   N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66   Farther on, however, you
> come
> > to
> > > > jolly fun and games—great notices.
> > > >
> > > > 1948   E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78   *Fun and games*, any
> > sort
> > > of
> > > > brush with the enemy at sea.
> > > >
> > > > 1948   ‘N. Shute’ *No Highway* iii. 70   ‘Fun and games,’ he said.
> ‘The
> > > > boffin's going mad.’
> > > >
> > > > 1952   E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260   Beneath the
> > orderly
> > > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of
> > > > ‘fun and games’.
> > > >
> > > > 1954   C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22   If it happened
> because
> > > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd,
> > > > somebody is going to be sorry.
> > > >
> > > > 1966   J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59,   I headed the car in the
> > direction
> > > of
> > > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local
> drivers.
> > > >
> > > > 1970   *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3   Mr. Brown also
> expects
> > > the
> > > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new
> > > > legislation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson
> > > > <ababson@umich.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got
> > > > rejected,
> > > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more
> > > > > active
> > here?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach
> > > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young
> people.
> > On
> > > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of
> > ideologies
> > > > of
> > > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and
> > > > > fun
> > are
> > > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those
> > > > > ideologies
> > are
> > > > > different and similar culturally and historically.
> > > > >
> > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more
> > relevant
> > > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and
> > culture
> > > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of
> > > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think
> > > > > of
> > > play
> > > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood
> > > > > or
> > > young
> > > > > adulthood.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this
> > > > conversation.
> > > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the
> > > > > relation of
> > > this
> > > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the
> > constitution
> > > of
> > > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after
> > > > > life,
> > > namely
> > > > as
> > > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors
> > > > > who
> > > are
> > > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we
> > > > > can or
> > > > should
> > > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young
> > > > > spirit
> > like
> > > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to
> > > > > the
> > > > above!
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Lecturer
> > > > > Graduate School of Education
> > > > > University of Pennsylvania
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between
> > having
> > > > fun
> > > > > > and playing.  How do they differ? Does their relationship, if
> > > > > > they
> > > are
> > > > > not
> > > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of
> development?
> > > Odd
> > > > > how
> > > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse.
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science
> > > > > > with
> > an
> > > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > sent from my phone
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > > Associate Professor
> > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern
> > > > University
> > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P.
> > > > O. Box 8144
> > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355
> > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964).
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
> > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
> > > ________________________________
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-- 

It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch