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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



Thank you very much for the support, Greg, I will try to develop this idea.

Susan, thank you for all of these interesting ideas. I am working to
understand them. Is there any recording or repository of presentations for
this forum at Monash?

  Beth

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:35 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Beth,
> "a method of perezhivanie" sounds like a brilliant and important thing to
> develop.
>
> I wonder if you might be able to use it to get at that sentiment that you
> described earlier where, talking about children's experience of time, you
> said "time is so condensed for young children so it is happening all the
> time". How to translate that experience to adults for whom time has slowed
> and expanded and for whom it is difficult not to impose on those poor
> children?
>
> (and I love the little gems you dropped throughout - "conserve the effect"
> (and perhaps the "affect" too!) is just one of many favorites...)
>
> Much appreciated.
> -greg
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever felt to what interests me
> > most.  It covers all the interests that brought me first to play and then
> > to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie.  Before I went to LCHC I was
> a
> > preschool teacher and this is a profession that I think can be described
> as
> > being, in its first part, responsible for reflecting upon the 'having an
> > experience' that is happening all around you every day (time is so
> > condensed for young children so it is happening all the time) so that you
> > can support the self-creation beings who are able to "have an
> experience''?
> >
> > Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher you find that what is
> > most important is to describe what is happening in a way that is true to
> > the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us how to do this.  If you
> > don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who has had the words that
> > give it life removed from its mouth: you just have dirt, nothing even
> > remotely related to the Golem, not even weight.
> >
> > I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for us those properties
> that
> > will characterize the experience as a whole.  What Monica named
> 'preschool
> > didactics from within' is a process of working with these people in
> > research. This sounds like 5D.
> >
> > Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two purposes of art criticism.
> One
> > is entirely in the domain of social life, he says, guiding what art
> creates
> > in its audience in useful directions.  The other is to 'conserve the
> effect
> > of art as art'.  He says we know this is needed, because art is a unity,
> > and without the whole criticism is not related to art -- he calls what we
> > have left, without the unity, a wound.  But criticism of art treats art
> as
> > a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says.  Vygtosky shows how to avoid
> > this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
> >
> > As a preschool teacher you know that art is life because if you forget
> this
> > then you have unhappy children and your job is impossible, or worse.  As
> an
> > researcher, every time you hit something hard you can revert to the first
> > purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the part that does not
> conserve
> > the effect, without any consequences on your livelihood.  If we could
> have
> > a system of science that makes it impossible to leave the hardest
> questions
> > to the first purpose of criticism, then we could have so many people
> > working on these hardest questions in a meaningful way, but I do not know
> > how to do this even in my own work.
> >
> > Except one way is to place the desires of the teachers and children
> before
> > your own.  This is sort of a method of love or empathy.  Kiyo suggested
> The
> > Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think) and this is related,
> also
> > Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality that the people she is
> > studying see.
> >
> > Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
> >
> > Beth
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Mike, could you elaborate on that?
> > >
> > > Alfredo
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> > > mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> > >
> > > Alfredo--
> > >
> > > a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design.
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here with
> > his
> > > > mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the
> > latter
> > > is
> > > > not about representing exactly, but about describing events in terms
> of
> > > > consequences for the participants, which they display for each other
> in
> > > > their actual practice.
> > > >
> > > > This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of
> > ANALYSIS
> > > > BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here.
> Unit
> > > > analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and real
> > > > phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time. That
> is
> > > > why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is warned
> not
> > > to
> > > > think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself".
> > > >
> > > > Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between self-action
> and
> > > > transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own
> powers.
> > > This
> > > > is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis by
> > > > elements. In transaction, they say, “deal[s] with aspects and phases
> of
> > > > action, without final attribution to ‘elements’ or other
> presumptively
> > > > detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or ‘realities,’ and without
> > isolation
> > > of
> > > > presumptively detachable ‘relations’ from such detachable
> ‘elements’”.
> > An
> > > > experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in
> > itself:
> > > it
> > > > is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey &
> > > Bentley
> > > > write.
> > > >
> > > > I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion,
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf
> of
> > > > mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
> > > > To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> > > >
> > > > Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and
> objectivism,
> > > > spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be
> > > > antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution
> > of
> > > > the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical
> > means,
> > > > only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not by
> > any
> > > > means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real problem
> of
> > > > life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it saw
> > there
> > > a
> > > > purely theoretical problem."
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
> > > > >
> > > > >    "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor
> > > > >    intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that
> > > > >    reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an
> > > > >    experience, we must make use of these adjectives of
> > > > >    interpretation. In going over an experience in
> > > > >    mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one
> > > > >    property rather than another was sufficiently dominant
> > > > >    so that it characterizes the experience as a whole."
> > > > >
> > > > > Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction
> when
> > > we
> > > > > *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the experience
> in
> > > our
> > > > > autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it scientifically,
> > all
> > > of
> > > > > which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to
> > > > recognise
> > > > > that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and
> > > cognition
> > > > > (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other
> > categories
> > > > you
> > > > > abstract from an experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andy
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > > > On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a
> fractal? I
> > > > >> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an experience
> > > > >> proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the beginning of the
> > road
> > > > to
> > > > >> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to.  You have an experience on
> > > several
> > > > >> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an
> > > experience.
> > > > >> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper of
> > > Dewey's
> > > > >> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am picking
> > up
> > > > on a
> > > > >> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something is
> > only
> > > > >> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is bothering
> > me.
> > > > Beth
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > > > >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>     Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing
> > > > >>     this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the
> > > > >>     aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from
> > > > >>     their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays.
> > > > >>     He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan
> > > > >>     of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle
> > > > >>     he is raising here is the completeness of an
> > > > >>     experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and
> > > > >>     this cannot be created by assembling together parts in
> > > > >>     the way a modern building is planned. An experience -
> > > > >>     the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an
> > > > >>     original or prior unity, not a combination, and this
> > > > >>     is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality,
> > > > >>     something which can only be transmitted by reproducing
> > > > >>     that whole of an experience.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>     Andy
> > > > >>     ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>     *Andy Blunden*
> > > > >>     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > > >>     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> > > > >>     On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         Andy,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         I'm still not sure about your question.  Did I set
> > > > >>         out to have that experience, that morning...no, I
> > > > >>         don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm
> > > > >>         pretty sure no).  Could I have just treated it as
> > > > >>         an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done
> > > > >>         so before.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         But I am guessing you're getting a something here
> > > > >>         Andy?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         Michael
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>         From:
> > > > >>         xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <mailto:
> > > > >> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >>         [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
> > > > >>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>=
> > > osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of
> > > > >>         Andy Blunden
> > > > >>         Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM
> > > > >>         To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > >>         Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience
> > > > >>         with the paintings..."
> > > > >>
> > > > >>         I mean that was an experience. Did you set out
> > > > >>         that morning to have that experience?
> > > > >>         RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says
> > > > >>         you can't do things indiscriminately and have
> > > > >>         vital experience, but you also can't plan things?"
> > > > >>         Andy
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>         *Andy Blunden*
> > > > >>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > > >>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> > > > >>         On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             Well I'm not sure I understand your question
> > > > >>             Andy, but perhaps it has
> > > > >>             something to do with my grandfather's favorite
> > > > >>             saying (translated from
> > > > >>             Yiddish),
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             Man plans, God laughs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             Michael
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>             From:
> > > > >>             xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
> > > > ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>             <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >>             [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
> > > > >>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>=
> > > > >> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>             <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
> > > > >>             On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > > > >>             Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM
> > > > >>             To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >>             Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             So Michael, there was just that one occasion,
> > > > >>             in all your museum-going, when you had an
> > > > >>             experience. Was that planned?
> > > > >>             (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number
> > > > >>             of such experiences,
> > > > >>             Michael ... just some number actually)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             Andy
> > > > >>
> > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>             *Andy Blunden*
> > > > >>             http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > > >>             <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>             On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 Hi Larry and all,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 I think this is one of the most complex
> > > > >>                 aspects of experience, what does he mean
> > > > >>                 when he says you can't do things
> > > > >>                 indiscriminately and have vital
> > > > >>                 experience, but you also can't plan
> > > > >>                 things?  I have discussed (argued) about
> > > > >>                 this a lot with my students.  I have
> > > > >>                 especially seen him raise this point in at
> > > > >>                 least two of his great works, Democracy
> > > > >>                 and Education and Experience and Nature -
> > > > >>                 and again of course in Art as Experience
> > > > >>                 (notice he is not saying how Art enters
> > > > >>                 into experience but how art is experience
> > > > >>                 - I have come to notice these little
> > > > >>                 things more and more in his writing).
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 The difficulty we have, at least in the
> > > > >>                 United States because of the dominance of
> > > > >>                 the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too
> > > > >>                 often translate what individuals are
> > > > >>                 bringing in to experience to organize it
> > > > >>                 as a form of meta-cognition.  It is kind
> > > > >>                 of possible to make that interpretation
> > > > >>                 from Democracy and Education, although
> > > > >>                 what I think he is doing more is arguing
> > > > >>                 against misinterpretations of his work as
> > > > >>                 random, child centered activities.  I
> > > > >>                 think he is clearer in Experience and
> > > > >>                 Nature that we bring in who we are at the
> > > > >>                 moment into the activity, and use who we
> > > > >>                 are (I don't want to say identity) as an
> > > > >>                 organizing principle for what we do.  It
> > > > >>                 is perhaps one of the places where Dewey
> > > > >>                 and Vygotsky are close.  Perhaps I can use
> > > > >>                 the same Jackson Pollock example.  The
> > > > >>                 first few times I saw his paintings I was
> > > > >>                 trying to "apprecitate" them because I was
> > > > >>                 told that was the best way to experience
> > > > >>                 them.  Dewey says no vital experience
> > > > >>                 there because my activities become stilted
> > > > >>                 and artificia
> > > > >>                     l.  Sometimes I went through the
> > > > >>                 museum and just looked at pictures, one to
> > > > >>                 the other.  No vital experience there,
> > > > >>                 just random threads. But that time I had
> > > > >>                 the experience with the paintings I was
> > > > >>                 allowing who I was, what had been built up
> > > > >>                 in the trajectory of my life to enter into
> > > > >>                 my experience with the painting, making it
> > > > >>                 a vital experience.  I think Dewey makes
> > > > >>                 the argument in Experience and Nature that
> > > > >>                 it is not just the experience the moment
> > > > >>                 before, but the experiences leading to
> > > > >>                 that experience, the context of my life,
> > > > >>                 of my parent's life, of a long line of
> > > > >>                 historical experiences.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 Anyway, my take.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 Michael
> > > > >>
> > > > >>                 -
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Beth Ferholt
> > > > >> Assistant Professor
> > > > >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
> > > > >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > >> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:
> > bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> > > > >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
> > > > >> Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
> > > > ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova &
> Storch,
> > > > Ecological Niche, 2008)
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
> > > ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch,
> > > Ecological Niche, 2008)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Beth Ferholt
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >
> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>



-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816