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[Xmca-l] About translation: WAS: Having an experience



Hi Susan,

Just for information. It is very difficult to translate Anglo science and English language texts into Russian and vice versa. The problem is that all concepts are somewhat different. There are analogous concepts that are easy to translate. However, there are many, and sometimes major concepts that cannot be translated linguistically or terminologically. They might differ slightly (which in science can be problematic or confusing when we try to communicate the richness of our findings) or a lot (which creates major problems). 

The English word Experience stands for several things that have separate words in Russian. The best possible way to translate is to have someone from the Anglo school of thought who is well versed in the Russian school of thought and Russian psychology and other social sciences. With all due respect, the Russians translate Anglo texts assuming that they understand them. The same for American translator. A language translator would not be able to make such translations. 

I have read papers in Russian. They make perfect sense to me. When similar papers are written in English by the same authors, the texts are beyond understanding. They are clumsy, illogical, strange. I have read such papers as a reviewer and have been stunned.  

Scholarly/scientific is about translating concepts and terminology, which is a completely different job compared to translation. In addition, we have the typical translation component with its problems. When Russians translate, in many cases they translate their idioms and staple expressions word by word. This doesn't make sense to Anglo readers. I have my own experience translating jokes. Very funny jokes. But people do not lough and look at me as if I come from Mars. The problem is that all jokes and the words used in the jokes are always very contextualized. This makes the joke. A literary translation word by word kills the joke and makes it a nonsense. Something similar happens in science as well. 

Perezhivanie cannot be translated in English without being defined. And the definition of perezhivanie will require the use of many words that cannot be translated in English without being defined. And so on. 

By the way, it was pretty common in the Soviet Block to write full-scale dissertation on one category only, over and over again, by different authors. This comes from the tradition to interpret Marx' writing and ideas, which by the way were scribbled poorly by hand in German. No one can read his scribbles, and then when the scribbles are put together, no one can make sense of his expressions, often written only for him of personal communication and reminders. The biggest paradox is that the East Germans used the 50-volume collective works of Marx that were published first in Russian and then translated them in German. You can imagine how much was lost in translation. On the top of all, the Bolsheviks were sticking to each word as they want it and claimed that that is the real and pure Marx and all the rest is revisionism. So much about Marx.

I personally have a lot of problems translating activity-action-operation-act, etc. -- the very basics of Activity Theory. 

When we talk about perezhivanie, I don't think Dewey is the best stepping stone. Also, perezhivanie is not well developed even in the Russian psychological literature. You can find more about it in the totality of its richness in Russian literary theory, theater and drama theory, and the other arts theories and philosophy. One reason that perezhivanie was not developed well in psychology is that it was considered very subjective, not measurable, and so on. In some way, the Russian ethnic concept of perezhivanie was in conflict with the militant strain of Marxist philosophy that the Bolsheviks have adopted. When the first major psychological books and articles on perezhevanie appeared in the 1980s, they were a big deal -- something daring, new, and liberating from the Marxist dogmas. Before the 1980's scholars (outside art theory and philosophy) who engaged in the study of perezhivanie risked to be branded as revisionist, with all negative implications for their careers. Actually, the major books on perezhevanie that appeard were not written by mainstream psychologists but by social philosophers who were interested in phenomenology and hermeneutics and have read enough translations or even original texts in German and French. 

A caveat: this is a generalized picture and the details might be somewhat different. Some people might have different experience and perception of that situation. I might be biased. But I still hope that this narrative will provide some impression about the difficulties translating texts instead of ideas and concepts. 

Best wishes, 

Lubomir

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Susan Davis
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 5:59 AM
To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience

Thank you for that encouragement Andy and the information about Dewey, Russian translations and perezhivanie & opit.

I understand that perezhivanie is not confined to the artist or artistic experience, however the aesthetic and artistic process can enable humans (not only artists) to encapsulate and externalise experience in ways that can heighten the experience and share it within social and cultural spheres. Yes an experience might be particularly significant and meaningful for us, but we may be able to make sense and draw meaning from it through expressing that in a particular aesthetic form and be able to share that with others in ways we might not otherwise do so. As an example, when my mother was ill and dying, this time included some very significant experiences, some of which stood out and had an impact on my life. However, through capturing and shaping some of my thoughts and feelings in poetic form, I was able to process these experiences for myself but also share them with others in ways I would not necessarily have done otherwise. In relation to work with children, through providing children with access to these various expressive forms (and actually teaching them about how to use the tools, and explore the impact of decisions made) we often find the children can express things about their thoughts and feelings that they may not be able to do through speech or writing alone. 

In terms of the expressive/aesthetic qualities of experience/perezhivanie in everyday life - this is about the awareness of the sensory qualities of things, the relationships and the exercising of judgment that may contribute to the quality of the experience. So we all put on clothes every day, but we may do so with varying degrees of attention to the sensory and aesthetic qualities of the items we wear and the relationships between the elements we choose and their overall impact.  Eisner talked about this type of ‘artistry' through concepts such as connoisseurship and criticism. This is not conceived of in an elitist way, but in the recognition that the ‘quality’ of experience can be determined through paying attention to qualities, detail and discernment.

Cheers
Sue

 



On 19/07/2015 6:32 pm, "Andy Blunden" <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

>Nice to hear your voice, Susan, rising up from the dark world of 
>lurkers!
>
>As to translation of Dewey's works into Russian. It seems, though I am 
>only going on a few glimpses, that Russians have translated 
>"experience" in Dewey's writing as opyt. If this is the case, then 
>obviously Dewey will seem to Russians as just another Empiricist and 
>the real novelty of American Pragmatism will escape their attention. I 
>raised the possibility of translating "Having An Experience" into 
>Russian on the Facebook page, and the only response was that Dewey 
>reads so well in English why translate him into Russian. :) But in my 
>opinion a translator would be obliged to translate "experience" 
>sometimes as opit and sometimes as perezhivanie, depending on the exact 
>point and context.
>Dewey has to struggle to bend the English language into making this 
>distinction which is provided ready-made in the Russian language. But I 
>think mainly if you follow the clue as to whether he uses the word as a 
>count noun or as a mass noun, you can correctly translate him into 
>Russians, choosing perezhivanie or opit accordingly. Dewey's critique 
>of the Reflex Arc is an example far from the artist's trade where he 
>explicitly poses the "double-barrelled" nature of acts/experiences.
>
>"Having An Experience" is presented by Dewey as part of his work on 
>Aesthetics, and aesthetic ideas play a big part in his explanation of 
>this idea. But can I suggest that in Art, perezhivanie is particularly 
>developed and stands out in particular sharpness from opit, and this is 
>great help in understanding what "an experience" is, as opposed to that 
>general background of thoughtless doing and passive undergoing. But 
>perezhivanija are not limited to the work of the artist. The artist is 
>obliged to recognise a perzhivanie and works at how to evoke it in 
>others, at least approximately, but it figures in all our lives even if 
>we never get to write our autobiography, reproduce them on stage or 
>express them on the canvass. But we do live through them and change 
>ourselves and the world in the process.
>
>Can I ask you: what in your opinion does Dewey mean when he talks about 
>the aesthetic quality of perezhivanija when he is discussing ordinary 
>life, not the work of an artist?
>
>Andy
>------------------------------------------------------------
>*Andy Blunden*
>http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>On 19/07/2015 5:54 PM, Susan Davis wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am an xmca lurker, but am particularly interested in some of the 
>>matters  raised on this thread in relation to experience, the arts 
>>perezhivanie and  learning so I will venture forth! My particular 
>>background has been drama  (including process and improvised forms of 
>>drama) and teacher education  but I have been involved in many 
>>projects working with children and young  people.
>>
>> I would like to present a number of points for consideration that 
>>respond  to some of the issue raised:
>>
>>   
>> It is important to note that Dewey was making a point that the 
>> art-making/creative experience was somewhat different from general 
>> experience per se.
>>
>>   
>> In relation to art and experience, art-making becomes a mediated,  
>>expressive and reflective process whereby experience is crystallised 
>>and  ideas/emotions internalised and externalised in specific 
>>expressive modes.
>> Through art and creative processes, experience and emotion is shaped  
>>through expressive 'forms', with the subjects or agents projecting and  
>>externalising their expression of emotion and ideas.
>>   
>>
>> Through art making these emotions and ideas are not just 
>>Œexperienced¹ but  selected, shaped and communicated socially in  some 
>>material form.  ³Selection and organization of material are at once a  
>>function and test of the quality of the  emotion experienced² (p. 72).  
>>These forms (such as art, music, theatre  and so on) are realised 
>>through reflection-in-action which involves  processes of selection 
>>and the relationship of qualities (and here  Eisner¹s work on the 
>>quality of qualities is also
>> pertinent) ­ ³Only when the constituent parts of the whole have the 
>>unique  end of contributing to the consummation of a conscious 
>>experience, do  design and shape lose superimposed character and 
>>become form² (p. 122).
>> Dewey¹s work draws attention to the process  and materiality of the 
>>making, and the embodiment of emotions and  imagination through Œform¹ 
>>involving these processes of selection,  organisation, elimination and 
>>resolution: ³In short, art, in its form,  unites the very same 
>>relation of doing and undergoing, outgoing and  incoming energy, that 
>>makes an experience to be an experience².  (Dewey,
>> 1934:50)
>>   
>>
>> Therefore when it comes to possibilities to studying perezhivanie or  
>>children¹s experience, while you can never get inside their  personal 
>>experience, it is possible to record their external expressions  of 
>>experience (through video/audio etc) and also their art-making  
>>(drawing, dance,dramatic play, songs etc) and also engage them in  
>>reflection-on-action about their experience.  It is also possible to 
>>trace  ongoing activity and expressions to trace their appropriation 
>>of concepts  and tool use and the development of ideas in their 
>>externalised  expressions.
>>   
>>
>> In relation to experience and reflection perhaps it is worth 
>>considering  two different notions of reflection and two different 
>>Russian terms that  relate to experience ­ perezhivanie and opyt. At a 
>>Perezhivanie forum  convened at Monash University earlier this year 
>>Nikolai Veresov noted that  in Russian the title of Dewey¹s book used 
>>another word Œopyt¹.Opyt implies  an experience that is in the past or 
>>is like the Œaccumulated body of  experience¹ (see Meshcheryakov in 
>>Blunden 2010).  However, it could be  argued that what Dewey was 
>>discussing was perezhivanie and a much more  immediate, active 
>>process, as Dewey says ³Experience Š..it signals active  and alert 
>>commerce with the world²(Dewey 1934, p. 18).
>>   
>>
>> I wonder if there has been any recent analysis of the Russian 
>>translations  of Dewey¹s ŒArt as experience¹ to consider whether it 
>>really is  appropriate to translate it as opyt or whether it should be 
>>perezhivanie  (or perhaps both).
>>   
>>
>> Likewise in art making and criticism, two different types of 
>>reflection  are involved, as proposed by Schon ­ reflection-in-action 
>>and  reflection-on-action.  These inform the immediate experience but 
>>also the  ongoing possibilities for the experience to be remade, 
>>reconceived and  inform future experience (and perhaps as Beth 
>>suggestions chains of  ideas/events/experience). Reflection-in-action 
>>is an active reflective  process that is part of the art-making 
>>experience, where the artist is  actually reflecting upon what is 
>>happening and being created, and drawing  on their toolkit of skills 
>>and knowledge and weighing up the qualities of  such to make moment by 
>>moment decisions about what to do next.  This  experience has a unity 
>>in itself, however there is also a provisionality  about it.  
>>Reflection-on-action may then be engaged in after the  
>>event/experience, as the experience is interpreted and made sense of 
>>and  other modes of expression and communication may be involved (eg.
>> Reflecting on a visual arts or music experience using verbal or 
>>written  language). This may be an act in itself or may inform further 
>>creative  activity and experience that may even extend upon, reinvent 
>>or reinterpret  the first.
>>
>>
>> I look forward to hearing some of your thoughts about these points.
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Sue Davis
>>
>> Dr Susan Davis
>> Senior Lecturer | School of Education & the Arts/Higher Education 
>>Division  CQUniversity Noosa, PO Box 1128, Noosaville Qld 4566  P +61 
>>(0)7 5440 7007 | M +61 (0)418 763 428 | E s.davis@cqu.edu.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/07/2015 3:43 pm, "Lplarry" <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Greg, Beth,
>>> How do we find a way to describe (in a way that is true) what the 
>>> preschool children are experiencing.
>>>
>>> The images of the video that Greg sent on the magic of synchronized 
>>>hand  clapping is one example of "showing" or "perceiving" Can this 
>>>experience  we see in the video  be described in a way that expresses 
>>>the truth of  the way the children are having this experience.
>>> can we do this type of truthful describing as observers of the  
>>>experience?
>>> Or must we undergo the experience (with) the children prior to 
>>>describing  the experience?
>>> Is synchronized hand clapping which is transformative a matter of  
>>>describing "subjects" and  "objects" or does the truth of this matter 
>>>as  lived experience exist in the undergoing the experienc of hand 
>>>clapping.
>>>
>>> Greg, I am reading the Gendlin article on (befindlichkeit) and this 
>>> concept seems relevant to this theme of having an experience and the 
>>> truth of describing synchronized hand clapping
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Greg Thompson" <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: 2015-07-18 8:37 PM
>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>
>>> Beth,
>>> "a method of perezhivanie" sounds like a brilliant and important 
>>>thing to  develop.
>>>
>>> I wonder if you might be able to use it to get at that sentiment 
>>>that you  described earlier where, talking about children's 
>>>experience of time, you  said "time is so condensed for young 
>>>children so it is happening all the  time". How to translate that 
>>>experience to adults for whom time has slowed  and expanded and for 
>>>whom it is difficult not to impose on those poor  children?
>>>
>>> (and I love the little gems you dropped throughout - "conserve the 
>>>effect"
>>> (and perhaps the "affect" too!) is just one of many favorites...)
>>>
>>> Much appreciated.
>>> -greg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever felt to what 
>>>>interests me  most.  It covers all the interests that brought me 
>>>>first to play and  then  to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie.  
>>>>Before I went to LCHC I  was a  preschool teacher and this is a 
>>>>profession that I think can be  described as  being, in its first 
>>>>part, responsible for reflecting upon the 'having an  experience' 
>>>>that is happening all around you every day (time is so  condensed 
>>>>for young children so it is happening all the time) so that  you  
>>>>can support the self-creation beings who are able to "have an  
>>>>experience''?
>>>>
>>>> Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher you find that 
>>>>what is  most important is to describe what is happening in a way 
>>>>that is true to  the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us 
>>>>how to do this.  If  you  don;t do this you find dealing with the 
>>>>Golem who has had the words that  give it life removed from its 
>>>>mouth: you just have dirt, nothing even  remotely related to the 
>>>>Golem, not even weight.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for us those 
>>>> properties that will characterize the experience as a whole.  What 
>>>> Monica named 'preschool didactics from within' is a process of 
>>>> working with these people in research. This sounds like 5D.
>>>>
>>>> Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two purposes of art criticism.
>>>> One
>>>> is entirely in the domain of social life, he says, guiding what art  
>>>>creates  in its audience in useful directions.  The other is to 
>>>>'conserve the  effect  of art as art'.  He says we know this is 
>>>>needed, because art is a unity,  and without the whole criticism is 
>>>>not related to art -- he calls what  we  have left, without the 
>>>>unity, a wound.  But criticism of art treats art  as  a 
>>>>parliamentary speech -- often -- he says.  Vygtosky shows how to 
>>>>avoid  this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>>>
>>>> As a preschool teacher you know that art is life because if you 
>>>> forget this then you have unhappy children and your job is 
>>>> impossible, or worse.
>>>> As an
>>>> researcher, every time you hit something hard you can revert to the 
>>>> first purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the part that 
>>>> does not conserve the effect, without any consequences on your 
>>>> livelihood.  If we could have a system of science that makes it 
>>>> impossible to leave the hardest questions to the first purpose of 
>>>> criticism, then we could have so many people working on these 
>>>> hardest questions in a meaningful way, but I do not know how to do 
>>>> this even in my own work.
>>>>
>>>> Except one way is to place the desires of the teachers and children  
>>>>before  your own.  This is sort of a method of love or empathy.  
>>>>Kiyo suggested  The  Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I 
>>>>think) and this is related,  also  Edith Turner's work where she 
>>>>sees the reality that the people she is  studying see.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>>>
>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil 
>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf 
>>>>> of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo--
>>>>>
>>>>> a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design.
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil
>>>> <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here 
>>>>>> with
>>>> his
>>>>>> mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the
>>>> latter
>>>>> is
>>>>>> not about representing exactly, but about describing events in
>>>> terms of
>>>>>> consequences for the participants, which they display for each
>>>> other in
>>>>>> their actual practice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of
>>>> ANALYSIS
>>>>>> BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here.
>>>> Unit
>>>>>> analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and
>>>> real
>>>>>> phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time.
>>>> That is
>>>>>> why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is 
>>>>>> warned
>>>> not
>>>>> to
>>>>>> think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between 
>>>>>> self-action
>>>> and
>>>>>> transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own
>>>> powers.
>>>>> This
>>>>>> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis 
>>>>>> by elements. In transaction, they say, ³deal[s] with aspects and
>>>> phases of
>>>>>> action, without final attribution to Œelements¹ or other
>>>> presumptively
>>>>>> detachable Œentities,¹ Œessences,¹ or Œrealities,¹ and without
>>>> isolation
>>>>> of
>>>>>> presumptively detachable Œrelations¹ from such detachable
>>>> Œelements¹².
>>>> An
>>>>>> experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in
>>>> itself:
>>>>> it
>>>>>> is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey 
>>>>>> &
>>>>> Bentley
>>>>>> write.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion, 
>>>>>> Alfredo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on 
>>>>>> behalf
>>>> of
>>>>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>>>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and
>>>> objectivism,
>>>>>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be 
>>>>>> antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The
>>>> resolution
>>>> of
>>>>>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical
>>>> means,
>>>>>> only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not 
>>>>>> by
>>>> any
>>>>>> means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real
>>>> problem of
>>>>>> life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it 
>>>>>> saw
>>>> there
>>>>> a
>>>>>> purely theoretical problem."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden 
>>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor
>>>>>>>     intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that
>>>>>>>     reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an
>>>>>>>     experience, we must make use of these adjectives of
>>>>>>>     interpretation. In going over an experience in
>>>>>>>     mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one
>>>>>>>     property rather than another was sufficiently dominant
>>>>>>>     so that it characterizes the experience as a whole."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction
>>>> when
>>>>> we
>>>>>>> *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the 
>>>>>>> experience
>>>> in
>>>>> our
>>>>>>> autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it 
>>>>>>> scientifically,
>>>> all
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to
>>>>>> recognise
>>>>>>> that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and
>>>>> cognition
>>>>>>> (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other
>>>> categories
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> abstract from an experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth 
>>>>>>> Ferholt wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a
>>>> fractal? I
>>>>>>>> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an 
>>>>>>>> experience proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the 
>>>>>>>> beginning of the
>>>> road
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to.  You have an experience on
>>>>> several
>>>>>>>> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an
>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>> Dewey's
>>>>>>>> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am
>>>> picking
>>>> up
>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something 
>>>>>>>> is
>>>> only
>>>>>>>> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is 
>>>>>>>> bothering
>>>> me.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden 
>>>>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing
>>>>>>>>      this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the
>>>>>>>>      aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from
>>>>>>>>      their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays.
>>>>>>>>      He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan
>>>>>>>>      of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle
>>>>>>>>      he is raising here is the completeness of an
>>>>>>>>      experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and
>>>>>>>>      this cannot be created by assembling together parts in
>>>>>>>>      the way a modern building is planned. An experience -
>>>>>>>>      the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an
>>>>>>>>      original or prior unity, not a combination, and this
>>>>>>>>      is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality,
>>>>>>>>      something which can only be transmitted by reproducing
>>>>>>>>      that whole of an experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Andy
>>>>>>>>      ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>      *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>>      http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>>>      <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>>>      On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          Andy,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          I'm still not sure about your question.  Did I set
>>>>>>>>          out to have that experience, that morning...no, I
>>>>>>>>          don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm
>>>>>>>>          pretty sure no).  Could I have just treated it as
>>>>>>>>          an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done
>>>>>>>>          so before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          But I am guessing you're getting a something here
>>>>>>>>          Andy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>          From:
>>>>>>>>          xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>>>          [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
>>>>>>>>          <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>=
>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>          <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>          Andy Blunden
>>>>>>>>          Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM
>>>>>>>>          To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>          Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience
>>>>>>>>          with the paintings..."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          I mean that was an experience. Did you set out
>>>>>>>>          that morning to have that experience?
>>>>>>>>          RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says
>>>>>>>>          you can't do things indiscriminately and have
>>>>>>>>          vital experience, but you also can't plan things?"
>>>>>>>>          Andy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>          *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>>          http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>>>          <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>>>          On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              Well I'm not sure I understand your question
>>>>>>>>              Andy, but perhaps it has
>>>>>>>>              something to do with my grandfather's favorite
>>>>>>>>              saying (translated from
>>>>>>>>              Yiddish),
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              Man plans, God laughs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>              From:
>>>>>>>>              xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>              <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>>>              [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>>>>>>>              <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>=
>>>>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>              <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
>>>>>>>>              On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>>>>>>>              Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>>>>>>>              To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>              <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>>>              Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              So Michael, there was just that one occasion,
>>>>>>>>              in all your museum-going, when you had an
>>>>>>>>              experience. Was that planned?
>>>>>>>>              (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number
>>>>>>>>              of such experiences,
>>>>>>>>              Michael ... just some number actually)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              Andy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>   ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>              *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>>              http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>>>              <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  Hi Larry and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  I think this is one of the most complex
>>>>>>>>                  aspects of experience, what does he mean
>>>>>>>>                  when he says you can't do things
>>>>>>>>                  indiscriminately and have vital
>>>>>>>>                  experience, but you also can't plan
>>>>>>>>                  things?  I have discussed (argued) about
>>>>>>>>                  this a lot with my students.  I have
>>>>>>>>                  especially seen him raise this point in at
>>>>>>>>                  least two of his great works, Democracy
>>>>>>>>                  and Education and Experience and Nature -
>>>>>>>>                  and again of course in Art as Experience
>>>>>>>>                  (notice he is not saying how Art enters
>>>>>>>>                  into experience but how art is experience
>>>>>>>>                  - I have come to notice these little
>>>>>>>>                  things more and more in his writing).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  The difficulty we have, at least in the
>>>>>>>>                  United States because of the dominance of
>>>>>>>>                  the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too
>>>>>>>>                  often translate what individuals are
>>>>>>>>                  bringing in to experience to organize it
>>>>>>>>                  as a form of meta-cognition.  It is kind
>>>>>>>>                  of possible to make that interpretation
>>>>>>>>                  from Democracy and Education, although
>>>>>>>>                  what I think he is doing more is arguing
>>>>>>>>                  against misinterpretations of his work as
>>>>>>>>                  random, child centered activities.  I
>>>>>>>>                  think he is clearer in Experience and
>>>>>>>>                  Nature that we bring in who we are at the
>>>>>>>>                  moment into the activity, and use who we
>>>>>>>>                  are (I don't want to say identity) as an
>>>>>>>>                  organizing principle for what we do.  It
>>>>>>>>                  is perhaps one of the places where Dewey
>>>>>>>>                  and Vygotsky are close.  Perhaps I can use
>>>>>>>>                  the same Jackson Pollock example.  The
>>>>>>>>                  first few times I saw his paintings I was
>>>>>>>>                  trying to "apprecitate" them because I was
>>>>>>>>                  told that was the best way to experience
>>>>>>>>                  them.  Dewey says no vital experience
>>>>>>>>                  there because my activities become stilted
>>>>>>>>                  and artificia
>>>>>>>>                      l.  Sometimes I went through the
>>>>>>>>                  museum and just looked at pictures, one to
>>>>>>>>                  the other.  No vital experience there,
>>>>>>>>                  just random threads. But that time I had
>>>>>>>>                  the experience with the paintings I was
>>>>>>>>                  allowing who I was, what had been built up
>>>>>>>>                  in the trajectory of my life to enter into
>>>>>>>>                  my experience with the painting, making it
>>>>>>>>                  a vital experience.  I think Dewey makes
>>>>>>>>                  the argument in Experience and Nature that
>>>>>>>>                  it is not just the experience the moment
>>>>>>>>                  before, but the experiences leading to
>>>>>>>>                  that experience, the context of my life,
>>>>>>>>                  of my parent's life, of a long line of
>>>>>>>>                  historical experiences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  Anyway, my take.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                  -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn 
>>>>>>>> College, City University of New York
>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:
>>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and 
>>>>>> thus ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova 
>>>>>> &
>>>> Storch,
>>>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and 
>>>>>thus  ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova 
>>>>>& Storch,  Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Beth Ferholt
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education Brooklyn College, 
>>>> City University of New York
>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>>
>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>