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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



oops -- did not mean to use the term as a verb, above -- in any case the
reason we use film to discuss across cultures could be because it is a
medium of gaps (the still pictures appear to move because of the gaps -- I
am referring to Sobchack) -- Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, that is very helpful, thank you!
> I do not think it is ever without another, and thought of this when I read
> your recent paper.
> You can always perezhivanie with the others in yourself, so long as you
> attach the other to something, even to a "past" or "future" self.  Virginia
> Woolf is very good at showing this.  Paley's children in her class appear
> to be like Buber, having life stand still here with a cat or even a tree.
> Beth
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> I couldn't tell you that, Beth.
>> On Mike's suggestion, you will recall, the discussion of perezhivanie was
>> progressed, avoiding cross-cultural difficulties, by a discussion of films!
>> There is a movie called "An Education," and there is a passage in this
>> movie where the young heroine has this experience, following the revelation
>> of how she has been deceived and exploited. It is the moment of
>> self-transformation, but that transformation is extended perhaps over a
>> period of 24 hours, in silence, in that kind of state. The first movie that
>> was discussed was "Brief Encounter" and here that moment of time standing
>> still comes at the end of the movie when the heroine reflects on an
>> exciting affair and her life with her nice boring husband and sees that her
>> life is best just as it is and lets go of her romanticism. In my own life,
>> I recall several such time-standing-still moments of transformation. But in
>> none of these cases was there a therapist involved. It is an open question
>> for me, if you want to give a different name ("meta-perezhivanie") to that
>> perezhivanie where the person is able to reflect upon their own experience
>> without the aid of another.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> On 18/07/2015 1:25 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>> Which stage according to Vasilyuk's stages is the standing still?
>>> Redemption or the smack middle of repentance, when you can see both
>>> directions at once?  Beth
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on
>>>     FaceBook, Beth) that process of "life standing still"
>>>     is characteristic of the cathartic moment of a
>>>     perezhivanie.
>>>     And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie
>>>     I am more referring to its meaning in Greek drama, not
>>>     19th century medicine or Freudian psychoanalysis, all
>>>     of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I think,
>>>
>>>     Andy
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>>     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>     On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>>         Yes, this really makes sense!  So it is the doing
>>>         that is the practical energy.  SO Marx was writing
>>>         about a method of perezhivanie?
>>>
>>>         I may be conflating things but I am trying to
>>>         piece together several pieces (like how in a big
>>>         city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto
>>>         itself, and then you find out it is in the same
>>>         area as another neighborhood that you know well --
>>>         but you did not know they were connected -- ).
>>>
>>>         Actually that process of piecing together across
>>>         the gaps is also related to what we are talking
>>>         about.  Of course. When you age in a city you also
>>>         have the depth of the memories in layers at a
>>>         given place, and this stringing together across
>>>         time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
>>>         moments in which "life stands still her" strung
>>>         together like a strand of pearls = with gaps
>>>         between them.
>>>
>>>         Beth
>>>
>>>         On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden
>>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
>>>             particularly exciting!
>>>             There is one thing I'd like to add, which is
>>>         implicit
>>>             in Mike's quote from Marx:
>>>
>>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
>>>             which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
>>>             suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
>>>             The doing means that an experience (to be an
>>>             experience, and stand out from the background of
>>>             experience, have significance and form a whole)
>>>             entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
>>>             changing is trivial, such as changing other
>>>         people's
>>>             attitudes to you or most trivially changing
>>>         how you
>>>             henceforth interact with a certain kind of
>>>         situation,
>>>             person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is
>>>         not just
>>>             going through the motions or habit. And that
>>>         is why
>>>             experiences in this sense are so important to the
>>>             development of the personality and the world,
>>>
>>>             Andy
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>             *Andy Blunden*
>>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>             <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>
>>>             On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>>                 This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
>>>                 felt to what interests me
>>>                 most.  It covers all the interests that
>>>         brought me
>>>                 first to play and then
>>>                 to the playworlds and then to
>>>         perezhivanie.      Before I went to LCHC I was a
>>>                 preschool teacher and this is a profession
>>>         that I
>>>                 think can be described as
>>>                 being, in its first part, responsible for
>>>                 reflecting upon the 'having an
>>>                 experience' that is happening all around
>>>         you every
>>>                 day (time is so
>>>                 condensed for young children so it is
>>>         happening
>>>                 all the time) so that you
>>>                 can support the self-creation beings who
>>>         are able
>>>                 to "have an experience''?
>>>
>>>                 Like with Greg's students, as a preschool
>>>         teacher
>>>                 you find that what is
>>>                 most important is to describe what is
>>>         happening in
>>>                 a way that is true to
>>>                 the children's experiences. Vivian Paley
>>>         shows us
>>>                 how to do this.  If you
>>>                 don;t do this you find dealing with the
>>>         Golem who
>>>                 has had the words that
>>>                 give it life removed from its mouth: you
>>>         just have
>>>                 dirt, nothing even
>>>                 remotely related to the Golem, not even
>>>         weight.
>>>
>>>                 I think it is the teacher/artists who can
>>>         find for
>>>                 us those properties that
>>>                 will characterize the experience as a
>>>         whole. What
>>>                 Monica named 'preschool
>>>                 didactics from within' is a process of working
>>>                 with these people in
>>>                 research. This sounds like 5D.
>>>
>>>                 Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
>>>                 purposes of art criticism.  One
>>>                 is entirely in the domain of social life,
>>>         he says,
>>>                 guiding what art creates
>>>                 in its audience in useful directions.  The
>>>         other
>>>                 is to 'conserve the effect
>>>                 of art as art'.  He says we know this is
>>>         needed,
>>>                 because art is a unity,
>>>                 and without the whole criticism is not
>>>         related to
>>>                 art -- he calls what we
>>>                 have left, without the unity, a wound.  But
>>>                 criticism of art treats art as
>>>                 a parliamentary speech -- often -- he
>>>         says.      Vygtosky shows how to avoid
>>>                 this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>>
>>>                 As a preschool teacher you know that art
>>>         is life
>>>                 because if you forget this
>>>                 then you have unhappy children and your job is
>>>                 impossible, or worse.  As an
>>>                 researcher, every time you hit something
>>>         hard you
>>>                 can revert to the first
>>>                 purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow
>>>         to the
>>>                 part that does not conserve
>>>                 the effect, without any consequences on your
>>>                 livelihood.  If we could have
>>>                 a system of science that makes it
>>>         impossible to
>>>                 leave the hardest questions
>>>                 to the first purpose of criticism, then we
>>>         could
>>>                 have so many people
>>>                 working on these hardest questions in a
>>>         meaningful
>>>                 way, but I do not know
>>>                 how to do this even in my own work.
>>>
>>>                 Except one way is to place the desires of the
>>>                 teachers and children before
>>>                 your own.  This is sort of a method of love or
>>>                 empathy.  Kiyo suggested The
>>>                 Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I
>>>         think)
>>>                 and this is related, also
>>>                 Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
>>>                 that the people she is
>>>                 studying see.
>>>
>>>                 Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>>
>>>                 Beth
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo
>>>         Jornet
>>>                 Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>>                 wrote:
>>>
>>>                     Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>>
>>>                     Alfredo
>>>                     ________________________________________
>>>                     From:
>>>                            xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                     <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>                            <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                     <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>>                     behalf of
>>>                     mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>>                     Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>>                     To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>                     Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>
>>>                     Alfredo--
>>>
>>>                     a "method of organization" seems close
>>>         to a
>>>                     synonym for design.
>>>
>>>                     mike
>>>
>>>                     On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
>>>                     Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>>                     <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>>
>>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                     wrote:
>>>
>>>                         I like very much how Greg brings in a
>>>                         methodological issue here with his
>>>                         mention about ethnography and his
>>>         reading
>>>                         of "fidelity"; that the latter
>>>
>>>                     is
>>>
>>>                         not about representing exactly,
>>>         but about
>>>                         describing events in terms of
>>>                         consequences for the participants,
>>>         which
>>>                         they display for each other in
>>>                         their actual practice.
>>>
>>>                         This methodological aspect makes
>>>         me think
>>>                         that the the notion of ANALYSIS
>>>                         BY UNITS, which has been discussed
>>>         in xmca
>>>                         before, is useful here. Unit
>>>                         analysis reminds us that, as units,
>>>                         experiences, as concrete and real
>>>                         phenomena, have some form of
>>>         organization
>>>                         that extends in time. That is
>>>                         why, if I understood the
>>>         discussion below
>>>                         correctly, Beth is warned not
>>>
>>>                     to
>>>
>>>                         think of the unit of experience as
>>>         a unit
>>>                         "in itself".
>>>
>>>                         Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
>>>                         differentiation between
>>>         self-action and
>>>                         transaction. In self action,
>>>         things are
>>>                         explained by their own powers.
>>>
>>>                     This
>>>
>>>                         is, I believe, what Vygotsky would
>>>         have
>>>                         referred to as analysis by
>>>                         elements. In transaction, they say,
>>>                         “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
>>>                         action, without final attribution to
>>>                         ‘elements’ or other presumptively
>>>                         detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
>>>                         ‘realities,’ and without isolation
>>>
>>>                     of
>>>
>>>                         presumptively detachable
>>>         ‘relations’ from
>>>                         such detachable ‘elements’”. An
>>>                         experience can be studied precisely
>>>                         because it is not a thing in itself:
>>>
>>>                     it
>>>
>>>                         is always a moving, gesture, a
>>>         "method of
>>>                         organization" as Dewey &
>>>
>>>                     Bentley
>>>
>>>                         write.
>>>
>>>                         I thought this my add something to
>>>         your
>>>                         fascinating discussion,
>>>                         Alfredo
>>>
>>>
>>>         ________________________________________
>>>                         From:
>>>                                xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>                                <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>>                         behalf of
>>>                         mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>                         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>>
>>>                         Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>>                         To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind,
>>>         Culture,
>>>                         Activity
>>>                         Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an
>>>         experience
>>>
>>>                         Marx: It is only in a social
>>>         context that
>>>                         subjectivism and objectivism,
>>>                         spiritualism and materialism,
>>>         activity and
>>>                         passivity, cease to be
>>>                         antinomies and thus cease to exist
>>>         as such
>>>                         antinomies. The resolution of
>>>                         the theoretical contradictions is
>>>         possible
>>>                         only through practical means,
>>>                         only through the practical energy
>>>         of man.
>>>                         Their resolution is not by any
>>>                         means, therefore, only a problem of
>>>                         knowledge, but is a real problem of
>>>                         life which philosophy was unable
>>>         to solve
>>>                         precisely because it saw there
>>>
>>>                     a
>>>
>>>                         purely theoretical problem."
>>>
>>>                         On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
>>>                         Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>                         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>>>
>>>                     wrote:
>>>
>>>                             No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>>
>>>                                 "This unity is neither
>>>         emotional,
>>>                             practical, nor
>>>                                 intellectual, for these
>>>         terms name
>>>                             distinctions that
>>>                                 reflection can make within
>>>         it. In
>>>                             discourse//about//an
>>>                                 experience, we must make
>>>         use of
>>>                             these adjectives of
>>>                                 interpretation. In going
>>>         over an
>>>                             experience in
>>>                                 mind//after/ /its
>>>         occurrence, we
>>>                             may find that one
>>>                                 property rather than
>>>         another was
>>>                             sufficiently dominant
>>>                                 so that it characterizes the
>>>                             experience as a whole."
>>>
>>>                             Isn't this beautiful
>>>         scientific prose!
>>>                             We make these distinction when
>>>
>>>                     we
>>>
>>>                             *reflect* on an experience. And
>>>                             perhaps we include the
>>>         experience in
>>>
>>>                     our
>>>
>>>                             autobiography, act it out on the
>>>                             stage, analyse it
>>>         scientifically, all
>>>
>>>                     of
>>>
>>>                             which presupposes analysis and
>>>                             synthesis. But it is important to
>>>
>>>                         recognise
>>>
>>>                             that the unity is prior. It is not
>>>                             only a unity of emotion and
>>>
>>>                     cognition
>>>
>>>                             (for example) but also of
>>>         attention
>>>                             and will - and any other
>>>         categories
>>>
>>>                         you
>>>
>>>                             abstract from an experience.
>>>
>>>                             Andy
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>                             *Andy Blunden*
>>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>
>>>                             On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth
>>>         Ferholt wrote:
>>>
>>>                                 Or reproducing the part that
>>>                                 represents the whole? Like a
>>>                                 fractal? I
>>>                                 think it is the similarity
>>>         across
>>>                                 scales that makes an
>>>         experience
>>>                                 proleptic, or gives that
>>>         'bliss
>>>                                 conferred at the beginning
>>>         of the road
>>>
>>>                         to
>>>
>>>                                 redemption" that Vasilyuk
>>>         refers
>>>                                 to.  You have an experience on
>>>
>>>                     several
>>>
>>>                                 timescales and so a sense of
>>>                                 deja-vu is central to
>>>         having an
>>>
>>>                     experience.
>>>
>>>                                 This is what I am thinking
>>>         about
>>>                                 after reading both the
>>>         paper of
>>>
>>>                     Dewey's
>>>
>>>                                 and your recent piece on
>>>                                 perezhivanie, Andy,
>>>         although I am
>>>                                 picking up
>>>
>>>                         on a
>>>
>>>                                 small piece of the last
>>>         email in
>>>                                 this chain -- : If
>>>         something is only
>>>                                 itself in its whole then
>>>         you can't
>>>                                 study it, is what is
>>>         bothering me.
>>>
>>>                         Beth
>>>
>>>                                 On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at
>>>         11:22 PM,
>>>                                 Andy Blunden
>>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>
>>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                                      Not "getting at
>>>         something",
>>>                                 Michael. Just pursuing
>>>                                      this question you raised
>>>                                 about Dewey's saying that the
>>>                                      aesthetic quality of
>>>         medieval
>>>                                 buildings arises from
>>>                                      their not being "planned"
>>>                                 like buildings are nowadays.
>>>                                      He goes on to say
>>>         "Every work
>>>                                 of art follows the plan
>>>                                      of, and pattern of, a
>>>                                 complete experience." The
>>>         puzzle
>>>                                      he is raising here is the
>>>                                 completeness of an
>>>                                      experience which
>>>         gives it its
>>>                                 aesthetic quality, and
>>>                                      this cannot be created by
>>>                                 assembling together parts in
>>>                                      the way a modern
>>>         building is
>>>                                 planned. An experience -
>>>                                      the kind of thing which
>>>                                 sticks in your mind - is an
>>>                                      original or prior
>>>         unity, not
>>>                                 a combination, and this
>>>                                      is what gives a work
>>>         of art
>>>                                 that ineffable quality,
>>>                                      something which can
>>>         only be
>>>                                 transmitted by reproducing
>>>                                      that whole of an
>>>         experience.
>>>
>>>                                      Andy
>>>          ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>                                      *Andy Blunden*
>>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                        <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                      On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
>>>                                 Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>                                          Andy,
>>>
>>>                                          I'm still not
>>>         sure about
>>>                                 your question.  Did I set
>>>                                          out to have that
>>>                                 experience, that
>>>         morning...no, I
>>>                                          don't think so
>>>         (it was a
>>>                                 long time ago, but I'm
>>>                                          pretty sure no).
>>>         Could I
>>>                                 have just treated it as
>>>                                          an indiscriminate
>>>                                 activity, probably, I had done
>>>                                          so before.
>>>
>>>                                          But I am guessing
>>>         you're
>>>                                 getting a something here
>>>                                          Andy?
>>>
>>>                                          Michael
>>>
>>>                                          -----Original
>>>         Message-----
>>>                                          From:
>>>                  xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>                                 <mailto:
>>>         osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>>           [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>>
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bglassman.13>>>=
>>>
>>>         osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                     <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>
>>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>] On
>>>
>>>                                 Behalf Of
>>>                                          Andy Blunden
>>>                                          Sent: Thursday,
>>>         July 16,
>>>                                 2015 12:21 PM
>>>                                          To: eXtended Mind,
>>>                                 Culture, Activity
>>>                                          Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
>>>                                 Having an experience
>>>
>>>                                          YOu said: "...
>>>         But that
>>>                                 time I had the experience
>>>                                          with the
>>>         paintings..."
>>>
>>>                                          I mean that was an
>>>                                 experience. Did you set out
>>>                                          that morning to
>>>         have that
>>>                                 experience?
>>>                                          RE, your
>>>         question: "what
>>>                                 does he mean when he says
>>>                                          you can't do things
>>>                                 indiscriminately and have
>>>                                          vital experience,
>>>         but you
>>>                                 also can't plan things?"
>>>                                          Andy
>>>
>>>          ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>                                          *Andy Blunden*
>>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                        <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>           <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                          On 17/07/2015
>>>         2:09 AM,
>>>                                 Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>                                              Well I'm not
>>>         sure I
>>>                                 understand your question
>>>                                              Andy, but
>>>         perhaps it has
>>>                                              something to
>>>         do with
>>>                                 my grandfather's favorite
>>>                                              saying
>>>         (translated from
>>>                                              Yiddish),
>>>
>>>                                              Man plans,
>>>         God laughs.
>>>
>>>                                              Michael
>>>
>>>                                              -----Original
>>>                                 Message-----
>>>                                              From:
>>>          xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>>
>>>         ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>
>>>           <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>>             [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>>
>>>           <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bmglassman>>>=
>>>         ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>           <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>]
>>>                                              On Behalf Of
>>>         Andy Blunden
>>>                                              Sent:
>>>         Thursday, July
>>>                                 16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>>                                              To:
>>>         xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>>           <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>
>>>                                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>>                                              Subject:
>>>         [Xmca-l] Re:
>>>                                 Having an experience
>>>
>>>                                              So Michael,
>>>         there was
>>>                                 just that one occasion,
>>>                                              in all your
>>>                                 museum-going, when you had an
>>>                                              experience.
>>>         Was that
>>>                                 planned?
>>>                                              (I don't mean
>>>         to say
>>>                                 you haven't had a number
>>>                                              of such
>>>         experiences,
>>>                                              Michael ...
>>>         just some
>>>                                 number actually)
>>>
>>>                                              Andy
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>                                              *Andy Blunden*
>>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>                                        <
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>               <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>                                              On 17/07/2015
>>>         1:19
>>>                                 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>                                                  Hi Larry
>>>         and all,
>>>
>>>                                                  I think
>>>         this is
>>>                                 one of the most complex
>>>                                                  aspects of
>>>                                 experience, what does he mean
>>>                                                  when he
>>>         says you
>>>                                 can't do things
>>>          indiscriminately
>>>                                 and have vital
>>>                                                         experience, but
>>>                                 you also can't plan
>>>                                                  things?         I have
>>>                                 discussed (argued) about
>>>                                                  this a
>>>         lot with
>>>                                 my students. I have
>>>                                                         especially seen
>>>                                 him raise this point in at
>>>                                                  least two
>>>         of his
>>>                                 great works, Democracy
>>>                                                  and
>>>         Education and
>>>                                 Experience and Nature -
>>>                                                  and again of
>>>                                 course in Art as Experience
>>>                                                  (notice
>>>         he is not
>>>                                 saying how Art enters
>>>                                                  into
>>>         experience
>>>                                 but how art is experience
>>>                                                  - I have
>>>         come to
>>>                                 notice these little
>>>                                                  things
>>>         more and
>>>                                 more in his writing).
>>>
>>>                                                  The
>>>         difficulty we
>>>                                 have, at least in the
>>>                                                  United States
>>>                                 because of the dominance of
>>>                                                  the idea of
>>>                                 meta-cognition, is that we too
>>>                                                  often
>>>         translate
>>>                                 what individuals are
>>>                                                  bringing
>>>         in to
>>>                                 experience to organize it
>>>                                                  as a form of
>>>                                 meta-cognition. It is kind
>>>                                                  of
>>>         possible to
>>>                                 make that interpretation
>>>                                                  from
>>>         Democracy
>>>                                 and Education, although
>>>                                                  what I
>>>         think he
>>>                                 is doing more is arguing
>>>                                                  against
>>>                                 misinterpretations of his
>>>         work as
>>>                                                  random, child
>>>                                 centered activities.  I
>>>                                                  think he is
>>>                                 clearer in Experience and
>>>                                                  Nature
>>>         that we
>>>                                 bring in who we are at the
>>>                                                  moment
>>>         into the
>>>                                 activity, and use who we
>>>                                                  are (I
>>>         don't want
>>>                                 to say identity) as an
>>>                                                  organizing
>>>                                 principle for what we do.  It
>>>                                                  is
>>>         perhaps one of
>>>                                 the places where Dewey
>>>                                                  and
>>>         Vygotsky are
>>>                                 close. Perhaps I can use
>>>                                                  the same
>>>         Jackson
>>>                                 Pollock example.  The
>>>                                                  first few
>>>         times I
>>>                                 saw his paintings I was
>>>                                                  trying to
>>>                                 "apprecitate" them because
>>>         I was
>>>                                                  told that
>>>         was the
>>>                                 best way to experience
>>>                                                  them.         Dewey says
>>>                                 no vital experience
>>>                                                  there
>>>         because my
>>>                                 activities become stilted
>>>                                                  and artificia
>>>                                                      l.
>>>         Sometimes
>>>                                 I went through the
>>>                                                  museum
>>>         and just
>>>                                 looked at pictures, one to
>>>                                                  the other. No
>>>                                 vital experience there,
>>>                                                  just random
>>>                                 threads. But that time I had
>>>                                                  the
>>>         experience
>>>                                 with the paintings I was
>>>                                                  allowing
>>>         who I
>>>                                 was, what had been built up
>>>                                                  in the
>>>         trajectory
>>>                                 of my life to enter into
>>>                                                  my experience
>>>                                 with the painting, making it
>>>                                                  a vital
>>>                                 experience.  I think Dewey
>>>         makes
>>>                                                  the
>>>         argument in
>>>                                 Experience and Nature that
>>>                                                  it is not
>>>         just
>>>                                 the experience the moment
>>>                                                  before,
>>>         but the
>>>                                 experiences leading to
>>>                                                  that
>>>         experience,
>>>                                 the context of my life,
>>>                                                  of my
>>>         parent's
>>>                                 life, of a long line of
>>>                                                  historical
>>>                                 experiences.
>>>
>>>                                                  Anyway,
>>>         my take.
>>>
>>>                                                  Michael
>>>
>>>                                                  -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                 --
>>>                                 Beth Ferholt
>>>                                 Assistant Professor
>>>                                 Department of Early
>>>         Childhood and
>>>                                 Art Education
>>>                                 Brooklyn College, City
>>>         University
>>>                                 of New York
>>>                                 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>                                 Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>>                                 Email:
>>>         bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>
>>>                                        <mailto:
>>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>>
>>>
>>>                                 Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>                                 Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                         --
>>>
>>>                         Both environment and species
>>>         change in the
>>>                         course of time, and thus
>>>                         ecological niches are not stable
>>>         and given
>>>                         forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>>                         Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                     --
>>>
>>>                     Both environment and species change in the
>>>                     course of time, and thus
>>>                     ecological niches are not stable and given
>>>                     forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>>                     Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         --         Beth Ferholt
>>>         Assistant Professor
>>>         Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>>         Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>>         2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>         Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>>         Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>>         Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>         Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Beth Ferholt
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>
>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Beth Ferholt
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>



-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816