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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



Yes, that is very helpful, thank you!
I do not think it is ever without another, and thought of this when I read
your recent paper.
You can always perezhivanie with the others in yourself, so long as you
attach the other to something, even to a "past" or "future" self.  Virginia
Woolf is very good at showing this.  Paley's children in her class appear
to be like Buber, having life stand still here with a cat or even a tree.
Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I couldn't tell you that, Beth.
> On Mike's suggestion, you will recall, the discussion of perezhivanie was
> progressed, avoiding cross-cultural difficulties, by a discussion of films!
> There is a movie called "An Education," and there is a passage in this
> movie where the young heroine has this experience, following the revelation
> of how she has been deceived and exploited. It is the moment of
> self-transformation, but that transformation is extended perhaps over a
> period of 24 hours, in silence, in that kind of state. The first movie that
> was discussed was "Brief Encounter" and here that moment of time standing
> still comes at the end of the movie when the heroine reflects on an
> exciting affair and her life with her nice boring husband and sees that her
> life is best just as it is and lets go of her romanticism. In my own life,
> I recall several such time-standing-still moments of transformation. But in
> none of these cases was there a therapist involved. It is an open question
> for me, if you want to give a different name ("meta-perezhivanie") to that
> perezhivanie where the person is able to reflect upon their own experience
> without the aid of another.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 18/07/2015 1:25 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>
>> Which stage according to Vasilyuk's stages is the standing still?
>> Redemption or the smack middle of repentance, when you can see both
>> directions at once?  Beth
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on
>>     FaceBook, Beth) that process of "life standing still"
>>     is characteristic of the cathartic moment of a
>>     perezhivanie.
>>     And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie
>>     I am more referring to its meaning in Greek drama, not
>>     19th century medicine or Freudian psychoanalysis, all
>>     of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I think,
>>
>>     Andy
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>     On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>         Yes, this really makes sense!  So it is the doing
>>         that is the practical energy.  SO Marx was writing
>>         about a method of perezhivanie?
>>
>>         I may be conflating things but I am trying to
>>         piece together several pieces (like how in a big
>>         city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto
>>         itself, and then you find out it is in the same
>>         area as another neighborhood that you know well --
>>         but you did not know they were connected -- ).
>>
>>         Actually that process of piecing together across
>>         the gaps is also related to what we are talking
>>         about.  Of course. When you age in a city you also
>>         have the depth of the memories in layers at a
>>         given place, and this stringing together across
>>         time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
>>         moments in which "life stands still her" strung
>>         together like a strand of pearls = with gaps
>>         between them.
>>
>>         Beth
>>
>>         On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden
>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>>             Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
>>             particularly exciting!
>>             There is one thing I'd like to add, which is
>>         implicit
>>             in Mike's quote from Marx:
>>
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
>>             which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
>>             suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
>>             The doing means that an experience (to be an
>>             experience, and stand out from the background of
>>             experience, have significance and form a whole)
>>             entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
>>             changing is trivial, such as changing other
>>         people's
>>             attitudes to you or most trivially changing
>>         how you
>>             henceforth interact with a certain kind of
>>         situation,
>>             person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is
>>         not just
>>             going through the motions or habit. And that
>>         is why
>>             experiences in this sense are so important to the
>>             development of the personality and the world,
>>
>>             Andy
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>             *Andy Blunden*
>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>             <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>             On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>                 This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
>>                 felt to what interests me
>>                 most.  It covers all the interests that
>>         brought me
>>                 first to play and then
>>                 to the playworlds and then to
>>         perezhivanie.      Before I went to LCHC I was a
>>                 preschool teacher and this is a profession
>>         that I
>>                 think can be described as
>>                 being, in its first part, responsible for
>>                 reflecting upon the 'having an
>>                 experience' that is happening all around
>>         you every
>>                 day (time is so
>>                 condensed for young children so it is
>>         happening
>>                 all the time) so that you
>>                 can support the self-creation beings who
>>         are able
>>                 to "have an experience''?
>>
>>                 Like with Greg's students, as a preschool
>>         teacher
>>                 you find that what is
>>                 most important is to describe what is
>>         happening in
>>                 a way that is true to
>>                 the children's experiences. Vivian Paley
>>         shows us
>>                 how to do this.  If you
>>                 don;t do this you find dealing with the
>>         Golem who
>>                 has had the words that
>>                 give it life removed from its mouth: you
>>         just have
>>                 dirt, nothing even
>>                 remotely related to the Golem, not even
>>         weight.
>>
>>                 I think it is the teacher/artists who can
>>         find for
>>                 us those properties that
>>                 will characterize the experience as a
>>         whole. What
>>                 Monica named 'preschool
>>                 didactics from within' is a process of working
>>                 with these people in
>>                 research. This sounds like 5D.
>>
>>                 Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
>>                 purposes of art criticism.  One
>>                 is entirely in the domain of social life,
>>         he says,
>>                 guiding what art creates
>>                 in its audience in useful directions.  The
>>         other
>>                 is to 'conserve the effect
>>                 of art as art'.  He says we know this is
>>         needed,
>>                 because art is a unity,
>>                 and without the whole criticism is not
>>         related to
>>                 art -- he calls what we
>>                 have left, without the unity, a wound.  But
>>                 criticism of art treats art as
>>                 a parliamentary speech -- often -- he
>>         says.      Vygtosky shows how to avoid
>>                 this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>
>>                 As a preschool teacher you know that art
>>         is life
>>                 because if you forget this
>>                 then you have unhappy children and your job is
>>                 impossible, or worse.  As an
>>                 researcher, every time you hit something
>>         hard you
>>                 can revert to the first
>>                 purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow
>>         to the
>>                 part that does not conserve
>>                 the effect, without any consequences on your
>>                 livelihood.  If we could have
>>                 a system of science that makes it
>>         impossible to
>>                 leave the hardest questions
>>                 to the first purpose of criticism, then we
>>         could
>>                 have so many people
>>                 working on these hardest questions in a
>>         meaningful
>>                 way, but I do not know
>>                 how to do this even in my own work.
>>
>>                 Except one way is to place the desires of the
>>                 teachers and children before
>>                 your own.  This is sort of a method of love or
>>                 empathy.  Kiyo suggested The
>>                 Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I
>>         think)
>>                 and this is related, also
>>                 Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
>>                 that the people she is
>>                 studying see.
>>
>>                 Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>
>>                 Beth
>>
>>
>>                 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo
>>         Jornet
>>                 Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>                 wrote:
>>
>>                     Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>
>>                     Alfredo
>>                     ________________________________________
>>                     From:
>>                            xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                     <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                            <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                     <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>                     behalf of
>>                     mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>                     Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>                     To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>                     Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>
>>                     Alfredo--
>>
>>                     a "method of organization" seems close
>>         to a
>>                     synonym for design.
>>
>>                     mike
>>
>>                     On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
>>                     Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>>                     <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>
>>         <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
>>
>>                     wrote:
>>
>>                         I like very much how Greg brings in a
>>                         methodological issue here with his
>>                         mention about ethnography and his
>>         reading
>>                         of "fidelity"; that the latter
>>
>>                     is
>>
>>                         not about representing exactly,
>>         but about
>>                         describing events in terms of
>>                         consequences for the participants,
>>         which
>>                         they display for each other in
>>                         their actual practice.
>>
>>                         This methodological aspect makes
>>         me think
>>                         that the the notion of ANALYSIS
>>                         BY UNITS, which has been discussed
>>         in xmca
>>                         before, is useful here. Unit
>>                         analysis reminds us that, as units,
>>                         experiences, as concrete and real
>>                         phenomena, have some form of
>>         organization
>>                         that extends in time. That is
>>                         why, if I understood the
>>         discussion below
>>                         correctly, Beth is warned not
>>
>>                     to
>>
>>                         think of the unit of experience as
>>         a unit
>>                         "in itself".
>>
>>                         Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
>>                         differentiation between
>>         self-action and
>>                         transaction. In self action,
>>         things are
>>                         explained by their own powers.
>>
>>                     This
>>
>>                         is, I believe, what Vygotsky would
>>         have
>>                         referred to as analysis by
>>                         elements. In transaction, they say,
>>                         “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
>>                         action, without final attribution to
>>                         ‘elements’ or other presumptively
>>                         detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
>>                         ‘realities,’ and without isolation
>>
>>                     of
>>
>>                         presumptively detachable
>>         ‘relations’ from
>>                         such detachable ‘elements’”. An
>>                         experience can be studied precisely
>>                         because it is not a thing in itself:
>>
>>                     it
>>
>>                         is always a moving, gesture, a
>>         "method of
>>                         organization" as Dewey &
>>
>>                     Bentley
>>
>>                         write.
>>
>>                         I thought this my add something to
>>         your
>>                         fascinating discussion,
>>                         Alfredo
>>
>>
>>         ________________________________________
>>                         From:
>>                                xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                                <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=
>> iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>>> on
>>                         behalf of
>>                         mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>                         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
>>
>>         <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
>>                         Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>                         To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind,
>>         Culture,
>>                         Activity
>>                         Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an
>>         experience
>>
>>                         Marx: It is only in a social
>>         context that
>>                         subjectivism and objectivism,
>>                         spiritualism and materialism,
>>         activity and
>>                         passivity, cease to be
>>                         antinomies and thus cease to exist
>>         as such
>>                         antinomies. The resolution of
>>                         the theoretical contradictions is
>>         possible
>>                         only through practical means,
>>                         only through the practical energy
>>         of man.
>>                         Their resolution is not by any
>>                         means, therefore, only a problem of
>>                         knowledge, but is a real problem of
>>                         life which philosophy was unable
>>         to solve
>>                         precisely because it saw there
>>
>>                     a
>>
>>                         purely theoretical problem."
>>
>>                         On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
>>                         Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>                         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>>
>>                     wrote:
>>
>>                             No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>
>>                                 "This unity is neither
>>         emotional,
>>                             practical, nor
>>                                 intellectual, for these
>>         terms name
>>                             distinctions that
>>                                 reflection can make within
>>         it. In
>>                             discourse//about//an
>>                                 experience, we must make
>>         use of
>>                             these adjectives of
>>                                 interpretation. In going
>>         over an
>>                             experience in
>>                                 mind//after/ /its
>>         occurrence, we
>>                             may find that one
>>                                 property rather than
>>         another was
>>                             sufficiently dominant
>>                                 so that it characterizes the
>>                             experience as a whole."
>>
>>                             Isn't this beautiful
>>         scientific prose!
>>                             We make these distinction when
>>
>>                     we
>>
>>                             *reflect* on an experience. And
>>                             perhaps we include the
>>         experience in
>>
>>                     our
>>
>>                             autobiography, act it out on the
>>                             stage, analyse it
>>         scientifically, all
>>
>>                     of
>>
>>                             which presupposes analysis and
>>                             synthesis. But it is important to
>>
>>                         recognise
>>
>>                             that the unity is prior. It is not
>>                             only a unity of emotion and
>>
>>                     cognition
>>
>>                             (for example) but also of
>>         attention
>>                             and will - and any other
>>         categories
>>
>>                         you
>>
>>                             abstract from an experience.
>>
>>                             Andy
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                             *Andy Blunden*
>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>                             On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth
>>         Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>                                 Or reproducing the part that
>>                                 represents the whole? Like a
>>                                 fractal? I
>>                                 think it is the similarity
>>         across
>>                                 scales that makes an
>>         experience
>>                                 proleptic, or gives that
>>         'bliss
>>                                 conferred at the beginning
>>         of the road
>>
>>                         to
>>
>>                                 redemption" that Vasilyuk
>>         refers
>>                                 to.  You have an experience on
>>
>>                     several
>>
>>                                 timescales and so a sense of
>>                                 deja-vu is central to
>>         having an
>>
>>                     experience.
>>
>>                                 This is what I am thinking
>>         about
>>                                 after reading both the
>>         paper of
>>
>>                     Dewey's
>>
>>                                 and your recent piece on
>>                                 perezhivanie, Andy,
>>         although I am
>>                                 picking up
>>
>>                         on a
>>
>>                                 small piece of the last
>>         email in
>>                                 this chain -- : If
>>         something is only
>>                                 itself in its whole then
>>         you can't
>>                                 study it, is what is
>>         bothering me.
>>
>>                         Beth
>>
>>                                 On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at
>>         11:22 PM,
>>                                 Andy Blunden
>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>
>>                                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>>
>>                                      Not "getting at
>>         something",
>>                                 Michael. Just pursuing
>>                                      this question you raised
>>                                 about Dewey's saying that the
>>                                      aesthetic quality of
>>         medieval
>>                                 buildings arises from
>>                                      their not being "planned"
>>                                 like buildings are nowadays.
>>                                      He goes on to say
>>         "Every work
>>                                 of art follows the plan
>>                                      of, and pattern of, a
>>                                 complete experience." The
>>         puzzle
>>                                      he is raising here is the
>>                                 completeness of an
>>                                      experience which
>>         gives it its
>>                                 aesthetic quality, and
>>                                      this cannot be created by
>>                                 assembling together parts in
>>                                      the way a modern
>>         building is
>>                                 planned. An experience -
>>                                      the kind of thing which
>>                                 sticks in your mind - is an
>>                                      original or prior
>>         unity, not
>>                                 a combination, and this
>>                                      is what gives a work
>>         of art
>>                                 that ineffable quality,
>>                                      something which can
>>         only be
>>                                 transmitted by reproducing
>>                                      that whole of an
>>         experience.
>>
>>                                      Andy
>>          ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                      *Andy Blunden*
>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                        <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                      On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
>>                                 Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                          Andy,
>>
>>                                          I'm still not
>>         sure about
>>                                 your question.  Did I set
>>                                          out to have that
>>                                 experience, that
>>         morning...no, I
>>                                          don't think so
>>         (it was a
>>                                 long time ago, but I'm
>>                                          pretty sure no).
>>         Could I
>>                                 have just treated it as
>>                                          an indiscriminate
>>                                 activity, probably, I had done
>>                                          so before.
>>
>>                                          But I am guessing
>>         you're
>>                                 getting a something here
>>                                          Andy?
>>
>>                                          Michael
>>
>>                                          -----Original
>>         Message-----
>>                                          From:
>>                  xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                                 <mailto:
>>         osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>           [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>>
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>
>>                                        <mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bglassman.13>>>=
>>
>>         osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                     <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>                                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>] On
>>                                 Behalf Of
>>                                          Andy Blunden
>>                                          Sent: Thursday,
>>         July 16,
>>                                 2015 12:21 PM
>>                                          To: eXtended Mind,
>>                                 Culture, Activity
>>                                          Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
>>                                 Having an experience
>>
>>                                          YOu said: "...
>>         But that
>>                                 time I had the experience
>>                                          with the
>>         paintings..."
>>
>>                                          I mean that was an
>>                                 experience. Did you set out
>>                                          that morning to
>>         have that
>>                                 experience?
>>                                          RE, your
>>         question: "what
>>                                 does he mean when he says
>>                                          you can't do things
>>                                 indiscriminately and have
>>                                          vital experience,
>>         but you
>>                                 also can't plan things?"
>>                                          Andy
>>
>>          ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                          *Andy Blunden*
>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                        <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>           <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                          On 17/07/2015
>>         2:09 AM,
>>                                 Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                              Well I'm not
>>         sure I
>>                                 understand your question
>>                                              Andy, but
>>         perhaps it has
>>                                              something to
>>         do with
>>                                 my grandfather's favorite
>>                                              saying
>>         (translated from
>>                                              Yiddish),
>>
>>                                              Man plans,
>>         God laughs.
>>
>>                                              Michael
>>
>>                                              -----Original
>>                                 Message-----
>>                                              From:
>>          xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>
>>         ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>>           <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>             [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>
>>                                        <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>>
>>           <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman
>>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%25252Bmglassman>>>=
>>         ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>           <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>]
>>                                              On Behalf Of
>>         Andy Blunden
>>                                              Sent:
>>         Thursday, July
>>                                 16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>                                              To:
>>         xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>           <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>                                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>
>>                                              Subject:
>>         [Xmca-l] Re:
>>                                 Having an experience
>>
>>                                              So Michael,
>>         there was
>>                                 just that one occasion,
>>                                              in all your
>>                                 museum-going, when you had an
>>                                              experience.
>>         Was that
>>                                 planned?
>>                                              (I don't mean
>>         to say
>>                                 you haven't had a number
>>                                              of such
>>         experiences,
>>                                              Michael ...
>>         just some
>>                                 number actually)
>>
>>                                              Andy
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                                              *Andy Blunden*
>>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                        <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>               <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>                                              On 17/07/2015
>>         1:19
>>                                 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                                  Hi Larry
>>         and all,
>>
>>                                                  I think
>>         this is
>>                                 one of the most complex
>>                                                  aspects of
>>                                 experience, what does he mean
>>                                                  when he
>>         says you
>>                                 can't do things
>>          indiscriminately
>>                                 and have vital
>>                                                         experience, but
>>                                 you also can't plan
>>                                                  things?         I have
>>                                 discussed (argued) about
>>                                                  this a
>>         lot with
>>                                 my students. I have
>>                                                         especially seen
>>                                 him raise this point in at
>>                                                  least two
>>         of his
>>                                 great works, Democracy
>>                                                  and
>>         Education and
>>                                 Experience and Nature -
>>                                                  and again of
>>                                 course in Art as Experience
>>                                                  (notice
>>         he is not
>>                                 saying how Art enters
>>                                                  into
>>         experience
>>                                 but how art is experience
>>                                                  - I have
>>         come to
>>                                 notice these little
>>                                                  things
>>         more and
>>                                 more in his writing).
>>
>>                                                  The
>>         difficulty we
>>                                 have, at least in the
>>                                                  United States
>>                                 because of the dominance of
>>                                                  the idea of
>>                                 meta-cognition, is that we too
>>                                                  often
>>         translate
>>                                 what individuals are
>>                                                  bringing
>>         in to
>>                                 experience to organize it
>>                                                  as a form of
>>                                 meta-cognition. It is kind
>>                                                  of
>>         possible to
>>                                 make that interpretation
>>                                                  from
>>         Democracy
>>                                 and Education, although
>>                                                  what I
>>         think he
>>                                 is doing more is arguing
>>                                                  against
>>                                 misinterpretations of his
>>         work as
>>                                                  random, child
>>                                 centered activities.  I
>>                                                  think he is
>>                                 clearer in Experience and
>>                                                  Nature
>>         that we
>>                                 bring in who we are at the
>>                                                  moment
>>         into the
>>                                 activity, and use who we
>>                                                  are (I
>>         don't want
>>                                 to say identity) as an
>>                                                  organizing
>>                                 principle for what we do.  It
>>                                                  is
>>         perhaps one of
>>                                 the places where Dewey
>>                                                  and
>>         Vygotsky are
>>                                 close. Perhaps I can use
>>                                                  the same
>>         Jackson
>>                                 Pollock example.  The
>>                                                  first few
>>         times I
>>                                 saw his paintings I was
>>                                                  trying to
>>                                 "apprecitate" them because
>>         I was
>>                                                  told that
>>         was the
>>                                 best way to experience
>>                                                  them.         Dewey says
>>                                 no vital experience
>>                                                  there
>>         because my
>>                                 activities become stilted
>>                                                  and artificia
>>                                                      l.
>>         Sometimes
>>                                 I went through the
>>                                                  museum
>>         and just
>>                                 looked at pictures, one to
>>                                                  the other. No
>>                                 vital experience there,
>>                                                  just random
>>                                 threads. But that time I had
>>                                                  the
>>         experience
>>                                 with the paintings I was
>>                                                  allowing
>>         who I
>>                                 was, what had been built up
>>                                                  in the
>>         trajectory
>>                                 of my life to enter into
>>                                                  my experience
>>                                 with the painting, making it
>>                                                  a vital
>>                                 experience.  I think Dewey
>>         makes
>>                                                  the
>>         argument in
>>                                 Experience and Nature that
>>                                                  it is not
>>         just
>>                                 the experience the moment
>>                                                  before,
>>         but the
>>                                 experiences leading to
>>                                                  that
>>         experience,
>>                                 the context of my life,
>>                                                  of my
>>         parent's
>>                                 life, of a long line of
>>                                                  historical
>>                                 experiences.
>>
>>                                                  Anyway,
>>         my take.
>>
>>                                                  Michael
>>
>>                                                  -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                                 --
>>                                 Beth Ferholt
>>                                 Assistant Professor
>>                                 Department of Early
>>         Childhood and
>>                                 Art Education
>>                                 Brooklyn College, City
>>         University
>>                                 of New York
>>                                 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>                                 Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>
>>                                 Email:
>>         bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>                                        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>
>>                                        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>>
>>                                 Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>                                 Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>
>>
>>
>>                         --
>>
>>                         Both environment and species
>>         change in the
>>                         course of time, and thus
>>                         ecological niches are not stable
>>         and given
>>                         forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>                         Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>
>>
>>
>>                     --
>>
>>                     Both environment and species change in the
>>                     course of time, and thus
>>                     ecological niches are not stable and given
>>                     forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>                     Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         --         Beth Ferholt
>>         Assistant Professor
>>         Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>         Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>         2900 Bedford Avenue
>>         Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>
>>         Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>         Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>         Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Beth Ferholt
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>
>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>
>
>


-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816