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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



I couldn't tell you that, Beth.
On Mike's suggestion, you will recall, the discussion of perezhivanie was progressed, avoiding cross-cultural difficulties, by a discussion of films! There is a movie called "An Education," and there is a passage in this movie where the young heroine has this experience, following the revelation of how she has been deceived and exploited. It is the moment of self-transformation, but that transformation is extended perhaps over a period of 24 hours, in silence, in that kind of state. The first movie that was discussed was "Brief Encounter" and here that moment of time standing still comes at the end of the movie when the heroine reflects on an exciting affair and her life with her nice boring husband and sees that her life is best just as it is and lets go of her romanticism. In my own life, I recall several such time-standing-still moments of transformation. But in none of these cases was there a therapist involved. It is an open question for me, if you want to give a different name ("meta-perezhivanie") to that perezhivanie where the person is able to reflect upon their own experience without the aid of another.

Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 18/07/2015 1:25 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
Which stage according to Vasilyuk's stages is the standing still? Redemption or the smack middle of repentance, when you can see both directions at once? Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on
    FaceBook, Beth) that process of "life standing still"
    is characteristic of the cathartic moment of a
    perezhivanie.
    And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie
    I am more referring to its meaning in Greek drama, not
    19th century medicine or Freudian psychoanalysis, all
    of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I think,

    Andy
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    *Andy Blunden*
    http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
    On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:

        Yes, this really makes sense!  So it is the doing
        that is the practical energy.  SO Marx was writing
        about a method of perezhivanie?

        I may be conflating things but I am trying to
        piece together several pieces (like how in a big
        city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto
        itself, and then you find out it is in the same
        area as another neighborhood that you know well --
        but you did not know they were connected -- ).

        Actually that process of piecing together across
        the gaps is also related to what we are talking
        about.  Of course. When you age in a city you also
        have the depth of the memories in layers at a
        given place, and this stringing together across
        time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
        moments in which "life stands still her" strung
        together like a strand of pearls = with gaps
        between them.

        Beth

        On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden
        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

            Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
            particularly exciting!
            There is one thing I'd like to add, which is
        implicit
            in Mike's quote from Marx:
        https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
            which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
            suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
            The doing means that an experience (to be an
            experience, and stand out from the background of
            experience, have significance and form a whole)
            entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
            changing is trivial, such as changing other
        people's
            attitudes to you or most trivially changing
        how you
            henceforth interact with a certain kind of
        situation,
            person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is
        not just
            going through the motions or habit. And that
        is why
            experiences in this sense are so important to the
            development of the personality and the world,

            Andy
        ------------------------------------------------------------
            *Andy Blunden*
        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
            <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>

            On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:

                This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
                felt to what interests me
                most.  It covers all the interests that
        brought me
                first to play and then
                to the playworlds and then to
        perezhivanie.      Before I went to LCHC I was a
                preschool teacher and this is a profession
        that I
                think can be described as
                being, in its first part, responsible for
                reflecting upon the 'having an
                experience' that is happening all around
        you every
                day (time is so
                condensed for young children so it is
        happening
                all the time) so that you
                can support the self-creation beings who
        are able
                to "have an experience''?

                Like with Greg's students, as a preschool
        teacher
                you find that what is
                most important is to describe what is
        happening in
                a way that is true to
                the children's experiences. Vivian Paley
        shows us
                how to do this.  If you
                don;t do this you find dealing with the
        Golem who
                has had the words that
                give it life removed from its mouth: you
        just have
                dirt, nothing even
                remotely related to the Golem, not even
        weight.

                I think it is the teacher/artists who can
        find for
                us those properties that
                will characterize the experience as a
        whole. What
                Monica named 'preschool
                didactics from within' is a process of working
                with these people in
                research. This sounds like 5D.

                Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
                purposes of art criticism.  One
                is entirely in the domain of social life,
        he says,
                guiding what art creates
                in its audience in useful directions.  The
        other
                is to 'conserve the effect
                of art as art'.  He says we know this is
        needed,
                because art is a unity,
                and without the whole criticism is not
        related to
                art -- he calls what we
                have left, without the unity, a wound.  But
                criticism of art treats art as
                a parliamentary speech -- often -- he
        says.      Vygtosky shows how to avoid
                this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.

                As a preschool teacher you know that art
        is life
                because if you forget this
                then you have unhappy children and your job is
                impossible, or worse.  As an
                researcher, every time you hit something
        hard you
                can revert to the first
                purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow
        to the
                part that does not conserve
                the effect, without any consequences on your
                livelihood.  If we could have
                a system of science that makes it
        impossible to
                leave the hardest questions
                to the first purpose of criticism, then we
        could
                have so many people
                working on these hardest questions in a
        meaningful
                way, but I do not know
                how to do this even in my own work.

                Except one way is to place the desires of the
                teachers and children before
                your own.  This is sort of a method of love or
                empathy.  Kiyo suggested The
                Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I
        think)
                and this is related, also
                Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
                that the people she is
                studying see.

                Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.

                Beth


                On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo
        Jornet
                Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
        <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
        <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
        <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>
                wrote:

                    Mike, could you elaborate on that?

                    Alfredo
                    ________________________________________
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                    mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
        <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu
        <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>>
                    Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
                    To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
                    Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience

                    Alfredo--

                    a "method of organization" seems close
        to a
                    synonym for design.

                    mike

                    On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
                    Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
        <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
                    <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
        <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>>

                    wrote:

                        I like very much how Greg brings in a
                        methodological issue here with his
                        mention about ethnography and his
        reading
                        of "fidelity"; that the latter

                    is

                        not about representing exactly,
        but about
                        describing events in terms of
                        consequences for the participants,
        which
                        they display for each other in
                        their actual practice.

                        This methodological aspect makes
        me think
                        that the the notion of ANALYSIS
                        BY UNITS, which has been discussed
        in xmca
                        before, is useful here. Unit
                        analysis reminds us that, as units,
                        experiences, as concrete and real
                        phenomena, have some form of
        organization
                        that extends in time. That is
                        why, if I understood the
        discussion below
                        correctly, Beth is warned not

                    to

                        think of the unit of experience as
        a unit
                        "in itself".

                        Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
                        differentiation between
        self-action and
                        transaction. In self action,
        things are
                        explained by their own powers.

                    This

                        is, I believe, what Vygotsky would
        have
                        referred to as analysis by
                        elements. In transaction, they say,
                        “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
                        action, without final attribution to
                        ‘elements’ or other presumptively
                        detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
                        ‘realities,’ and without isolation

                    of

                        presumptively detachable
        ‘relations’ from
                        such detachable ‘elements’”. An
                        experience can be studied precisely
                        because it is not a thing in itself:

                    it

                        is always a moving, gesture, a
        "method of
                        organization" as Dewey &

                    Bentley

                        write.

                        I thought this my add something to
        your
                        fascinating discussion,
                        Alfredo


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                        Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
                        To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind,
        Culture,
                        Activity
                        Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an
        experience

                        Marx: It is only in a social
        context that
                        subjectivism and objectivism,
                        spiritualism and materialism,
        activity and
                        passivity, cease to be
                        antinomies and thus cease to exist
        as such
                        antinomies. The resolution of
                        the theoretical contradictions is
        possible
                        only through practical means,
                        only through the practical energy
        of man.
                        Their resolution is not by any
                        means, therefore, only a problem of
                        knowledge, but is a real problem of
                        life which philosophy was unable
        to solve
                        precisely because it saw there

                    a

                        purely theoretical problem."

                        On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
                        Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>

                    wrote:

                            No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:

                                "This unity is neither
        emotional,
                            practical, nor
                                intellectual, for these
        terms name
                            distinctions that
                                reflection can make within
        it. In
                            discourse//about//an
                                experience, we must make
        use of
                            these adjectives of
                                interpretation. In going
        over an
                            experience in
                                mind//after/ /its
        occurrence, we
                            may find that one
                                property rather than
        another was
                            sufficiently dominant
                                so that it characterizes the
                            experience as a whole."

                            Isn't this beautiful
        scientific prose!
                            We make these distinction when

                    we

                            *reflect* on an experience. And
                            perhaps we include the
        experience in

                    our

                            autobiography, act it out on the
                            stage, analyse it
        scientifically, all

                    of

                            which presupposes analysis and
                            synthesis. But it is important to

                        recognise

                            that the unity is prior. It is not
                            only a unity of emotion and

                    cognition

                            (for example) but also of
        attention
                            and will - and any other
        categories

                        you

                            abstract from an experience.

                            Andy
        ------------------------------------------------------------
                            *Andy Blunden*
        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>

                            On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth
        Ferholt wrote:

                                Or reproducing the part that
                                represents the whole? Like a
                                fractal? I
                                think it is the similarity
        across
                                scales that makes an
        experience
                                proleptic, or gives that
        'bliss
                                conferred at the beginning
        of the road

                        to

                                redemption" that Vasilyuk
        refers
                                to.  You have an experience on

                    several

                                timescales and so a sense of
                                deja-vu is central to
        having an

                    experience.

                                This is what I am thinking
        about
                                after reading both the
        paper of

                    Dewey's

                                and your recent piece on
                                perezhivanie, Andy,
        although I am
                                picking up

                        on a

                                small piece of the last
        email in
                                this chain -- : If
        something is only
                                itself in its whole then
        you can't
                                study it, is what is
        bothering me.

                        Beth

                                On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at
        11:22 PM,
                                Andy Blunden
        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
                                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>

                                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:

                                     Not "getting at
        something",
                                Michael. Just pursuing
                                     this question you raised
                                about Dewey's saying that the
                                     aesthetic quality of
        medieval
                                buildings arises from
                                     their not being "planned"
                                like buildings are nowadays.
                                     He goes on to say
        "Every work
                                of art follows the plan
                                     of, and pattern of, a
                                complete experience." The
        puzzle
                                     he is raising here is the
                                completeness of an
                                     experience which
        gives it its
                                aesthetic quality, and
                                     this cannot be created by
                                assembling together parts in
                                     the way a modern
        building is
                                planned. An experience -
                                     the kind of thing which
                                sticks in your mind - is an
                                     original or prior
        unity, not
                                a combination, and this
                                     is what gives a work
        of art
                                that ineffable quality,
                                     something which can
        only be
                                transmitted by reproducing
                                     that whole of an
        experience.

                                     Andy
         ------------------------------------------------------------
                                     *Andy Blunden*
        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
                                     On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
                                Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                         Andy,

                                         I'm still not
        sure about
                                your question.  Did I set
                                         out to have that
                                experience, that
        morning...no, I
                                         don't think so
        (it was a
                                long time ago, but I'm
                                         pretty sure no).
        Could I
                                have just treated it as
                                         an indiscriminate
                                activity, probably, I had done
                                         so before.

                                         But I am guessing
        you're
                                getting a something here
                                         Andy?

                                         Michael

                                         -----Original
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<mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>>] On
                                Behalf Of
                                         Andy Blunden
                                         Sent: Thursday,
        July 16,
                                2015 12:21 PM
                                         To: eXtended Mind,
                                Culture, Activity
                                         Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
                                Having an experience

                                         YOu said: "...
        But that
                                time I had the experience
                                         with the
        paintings..."

                                         I mean that was an
                                experience. Did you set out
                                         that morning to
        have that
                                experience?
                                         RE, your
        question: "what
                                does he mean when he says
                                         you can't do things
                                indiscriminately and have
                                         vital experience,
        but you
                                also can't plan things?"
                                         Andy

         ------------------------------------------------------------
                                         *Andy Blunden*
        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
          <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
                                         On 17/07/2015
        2:09 AM,
                                Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                             Well I'm not
        sure I
                                understand your question
                                             Andy, but
        perhaps it has
                                             something to
        do with
                                my grandfather's favorite
                                             saying
        (translated from
                                             Yiddish),

                                             Man plans,
        God laughs.

                                             Michael

                                             -----Original
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                                             On Behalf Of
        Andy Blunden
                                             Sent:
        Thursday, July
                                16, 2015 12:04 PM
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                                             Subject:
        [Xmca-l] Re:
                                Having an experience

                                             So Michael,
        there was
                                just that one occasion,
                                             in all your
                                museum-going, when you had an
                                             experience.
        Was that
                                planned?
                                             (I don't mean
        to say
                                you haven't had a number
                                             of such
        experiences,
                                             Michael ...
        just some
                                number actually)

                                             Andy

        ------------------------------------------------------------

                                             *Andy Blunden*
        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
              <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>

                                             On 17/07/2015
        1:19
                                AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                                 Hi Larry
        and all,

                                                 I think
        this is
                                one of the most complex
                                                 aspects of
                                experience, what does he mean
                                                 when he
        says you
                                can't do things
         indiscriminately
                                and have vital
experience, but
                                you also can't plan
things? I have
                                discussed (argued) about
                                                 this a
        lot with
                                my students. I have
especially seen
                                him raise this point in at
                                                 least two
        of his
                                great works, Democracy
                                                 and
        Education and
                                Experience and Nature -
                                                 and again of
                                course in Art as Experience
                                                 (notice
        he is not
                                saying how Art enters
                                                 into
        experience
                                but how art is experience
                                                 - I have
        come to
                                notice these little
                                                 things
        more and
                                more in his writing).

                                                 The
        difficulty we
                                have, at least in the
                                                 United States
                                because of the dominance of
                                                 the idea of
                                meta-cognition, is that we too
                                                 often
        translate
                                what individuals are
                                                 bringing
        in to
                                experience to organize it
                                                 as a form of
                                meta-cognition. It is kind
                                                 of
        possible to
                                make that interpretation
                                                 from
        Democracy
                                and Education, although
                                                 what I
        think he
                                is doing more is arguing
                                                 against
                                misinterpretations of his
        work as
                                                 random, child
                                centered activities.  I
                                                 think he is
                                clearer in Experience and
                                                 Nature
        that we
                                bring in who we are at the
                                                 moment
        into the
                                activity, and use who we
                                                 are (I
        don't want
                                to say identity) as an
                                                 organizing
                                principle for what we do.  It
                                                 is
        perhaps one of
                                the places where Dewey
                                                 and
        Vygotsky are
                                close. Perhaps I can use
                                                 the same
        Jackson
                                Pollock example.  The
                                                 first few
        times I
                                saw his paintings I was
                                                 trying to
                                "apprecitate" them because
        I was
                                                 told that
        was the
                                best way to experience
them. Dewey says
                                no vital experience
                                                 there
        because my
                                activities become stilted
                                                 and artificia
                                                     l.
        Sometimes
                                I went through the
                                                 museum
        and just
                                looked at pictures, one to
                                                 the other. No
                                vital experience there,
                                                 just random
                                threads. But that time I had
                                                 the
        experience
                                with the paintings I was
                                                 allowing
        who I
                                was, what had been built up
                                                 in the
        trajectory
                                of my life to enter into
                                                 my experience
                                with the painting, making it
                                                 a vital
                                experience.  I think Dewey
        makes
                                                 the
        argument in
                                Experience and Nature that
                                                 it is not
        just
                                the experience the moment
                                                 before,
        but the
                                experiences leading to
                                                 that
        experience,
                                the context of my life,
                                                 of my
        parent's
                                life, of a long line of
                                                 historical
                                experiences.

                                                 Anyway,
        my take.

                                                 Michael

                                                 -





                                --
                                Beth Ferholt
                                Assistant Professor
                                Department of Early
        Childhood and
                                Art Education
                                Brooklyn College, City
        University
                                of New York
                                2900 Bedford Avenue
                                Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

                                Email:
        bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
<mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>

<mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>>
                                Phone: (718) 951-5205
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
                                Fax: (718) 951-4816
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
        <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>



                        --

                        Both environment and species
        change in the
                        course of time, and thus
                        ecological niches are not stable
        and given
                        forever (Polotova & Storch,
                        Ecological Niche, 2008)



                    --

                    Both environment and species change in the
                    course of time, and thus
                    ecological niches are not stable and given
                    forever (Polotova & Storch,
                    Ecological Niche, 2008)







-- Beth Ferholt
        Assistant Professor
        Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
        Brooklyn College, City University of New York
        2900 Bedford Avenue
        Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

        Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
        Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
        Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>





--
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816