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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



Which stage according to Vasilyuk's stages is the standing still?
Redemption or the smack middle of repentance, when you can see both
directions at once?  Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on FaceBook, Beth) that
> process of "life standing still" is characteristic of the cathartic moment
> of a perezhivanie.
> And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie I am more referring
> to its meaning in Greek drama, not 19th century medicine or Freudian
> psychoanalysis, all of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I
> think,
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>
>> Yes, this really makes sense!  So it is the doing that is the practical
>> energy.  SO Marx was writing about a method of perezhivanie?
>>
>> I may be conflating things but I am trying to piece together several
>> pieces (like how in a big city you know a whole neighborhood as a world
>> unto itself, and then you find out it is in the same area as another
>> neighborhood that you know well -- but you did not know they were connected
>> -- ).
>>
>> Actually that process of piecing together across the gaps is also related
>> to what we are talking about.  Of course. When you age in a city you also
>> have the depth of the memories in layers at a given place, and this
>> stringing together across time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
>> moments in which "life stands still her" strung together like a strand of
>> pearls = with gaps between them.
>>
>> Beth
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
>>     particularly exciting!
>>     There is one thing I'd like to add, which is implicit
>>     in Mike's quote from Marx:
>>
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
>>     which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
>>     suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
>>     The doing means that an experience (to be an
>>     experience, and stand out from the background of
>>     experience, have significance and form a whole)
>>     entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
>>     changing is trivial, such as changing other people's
>>     attitudes to you or most trivially changing how you
>>     henceforth interact with a certain kind of situation,
>>     person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is not just
>>     going through the motions or habit. And that is why
>>     experiences in this sense are so important to the
>>     development of the personality and the world,
>>
>>     Andy
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>     On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>         This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
>>         felt to what interests me
>>         most.  It covers all the interests that brought me
>>         first to play and then
>>         to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie.         Before I went
>> to LCHC I was a
>>         preschool teacher and this is a profession that I
>>         think can be described as
>>         being, in its first part, responsible for
>>         reflecting upon the 'having an
>>         experience' that is happening all around you every
>>         day (time is so
>>         condensed for young children so it is happening
>>         all the time) so that you
>>         can support the self-creation beings who are able
>>         to "have an experience''?
>>
>>         Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher
>>         you find that what is
>>         most important is to describe what is happening in
>>         a way that is true to
>>         the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us
>>         how to do this.  If you
>>         don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who
>>         has had the words that
>>         give it life removed from its mouth: you just have
>>         dirt, nothing even
>>         remotely related to the Golem, not even weight.
>>
>>         I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for
>>         us those properties that
>>         will characterize the experience as a whole.  What
>>         Monica named 'preschool
>>         didactics from within' is a process of working
>>         with these people in
>>         research. This sounds like 5D.
>>
>>         Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
>>         purposes of art criticism.  One
>>         is entirely in the domain of social life, he says,
>>         guiding what art creates
>>         in its audience in useful directions.  The other
>>         is to 'conserve the effect
>>         of art as art'.  He says we know this is needed,
>>         because art is a unity,
>>         and without the whole criticism is not related to
>>         art -- he calls what we
>>         have left, without the unity, a wound.  But
>>         criticism of art treats art as
>>         a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says.         Vygtosky
>> shows how to avoid
>>         this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>
>>         As a preschool teacher you know that art is life
>>         because if you forget this
>>         then you have unhappy children and your job is
>>         impossible, or worse.  As an
>>         researcher, every time you hit something hard you
>>         can revert to the first
>>         purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the
>>         part that does not conserve
>>         the effect, without any consequences on your
>>         livelihood.  If we could have
>>         a system of science that makes it impossible to
>>         leave the hardest questions
>>         to the first purpose of criticism, then we could
>>         have so many people
>>         working on these hardest questions in a meaningful
>>         way, but I do not know
>>         how to do this even in my own work.
>>
>>         Except one way is to place the desires of the
>>         teachers and children before
>>         your own.  This is sort of a method of love or
>>         empathy.  Kiyo suggested The
>>         Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think)
>>         and this is related, also
>>         Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
>>         that the people she is
>>         studying see.
>>
>>         Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>
>>         Beth
>>
>>
>>         On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet
>>         Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>             Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>
>>             Alfredo
>>             ________________________________________
>>             From:
>>             xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>             <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>             behalf of
>>             mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>
>>             Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>             To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>             Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>
>>             Alfredo--
>>
>>             a "method of organization" seems close to a
>>             synonym for design.
>>
>>             mike
>>
>>             On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
>>             Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>             <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>
>>
>>             wrote:
>>
>>                 I like very much how Greg brings in a
>>                 methodological issue here with his
>>                 mention about ethnography and his reading
>>                 of "fidelity"; that the latter
>>
>>             is
>>
>>                 not about representing exactly, but about
>>                 describing events in terms of
>>                 consequences for the participants, which
>>                 they display for each other in
>>                 their actual practice.
>>
>>                 This methodological aspect makes me think
>>                 that the the notion of ANALYSIS
>>                 BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca
>>                 before, is useful here. Unit
>>                 analysis reminds us that, as units,
>>                 experiences, as concrete and real
>>                 phenomena, have some form of organization
>>                 that extends in time. That is
>>                 why, if I understood the discussion below
>>                 correctly, Beth is warned not
>>
>>             to
>>
>>                 think of the unit of experience as a unit
>>                 "in itself".
>>
>>                 Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
>>                 differentiation between self-action and
>>                 transaction. In self action, things are
>>                 explained by their own powers.
>>
>>             This
>>
>>                 is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have
>>                 referred to as analysis by
>>                 elements. In transaction, they say,
>>                 “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
>>                 action, without final attribution to
>>                 ‘elements’ or other presumptively
>>                 detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
>>                 ‘realities,’ and without isolation
>>
>>             of
>>
>>                 presumptively detachable ‘relations’ from
>>                 such detachable ‘elements’”. An
>>                 experience can be studied precisely
>>                 because it is not a thing in itself:
>>
>>             it
>>
>>                 is always a moving, gesture, a "method of
>>                 organization" as Dewey &
>>
>>             Bentley
>>
>>                 write.
>>
>>                 I thought this my add something to your
>>                 fascinating discussion,
>>                 Alfredo
>>
>>
>>                 ________________________________________
>>                 From:
>>                 xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                 <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
>>                 behalf of
>>                 mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>
>>                 Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>                 To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>                 Activity
>>                 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>
>>                 Marx: It is only in a social context that
>>                 subjectivism and objectivism,
>>                 spiritualism and materialism, activity and
>>                 passivity, cease to be
>>                 antinomies and thus cease to exist as such
>>                 antinomies. The resolution of
>>                 the theoretical contradictions is possible
>>                 only through practical means,
>>                 only through the practical energy of man.
>>                 Their resolution is not by any
>>                 means, therefore, only a problem of
>>                 knowledge, but is a real problem of
>>                 life which philosophy was unable to solve
>>                 precisely because it saw there
>>
>>             a
>>
>>                 purely theoretical problem."
>>
>>                 On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
>>                 Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>
>>             wrote:
>>
>>                     No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>
>>                         "This unity is neither emotional,
>>                     practical, nor
>>                         intellectual, for these terms name
>>                     distinctions that
>>                         reflection can make within it. In
>>                     discourse//about//an
>>                         experience, we must make use of
>>                     these adjectives of
>>                         interpretation. In going over an
>>                     experience in
>>                         mind//after/ /its occurrence, we
>>                     may find that one
>>                         property rather than another was
>>                     sufficiently dominant
>>                         so that it characterizes the
>>                     experience as a whole."
>>
>>                     Isn't this beautiful scientific prose!
>>                     We make these distinction when
>>
>>             we
>>
>>                     *reflect* on an experience. And
>>                     perhaps we include the experience in
>>
>>             our
>>
>>                     autobiography, act it out on the
>>                     stage, analyse it scientifically, all
>>
>>             of
>>
>>                     which presupposes analysis and
>>                     synthesis. But it is important to
>>
>>                 recognise
>>
>>                     that the unity is prior. It is not
>>                     only a unity of emotion and
>>
>>             cognition
>>
>>                     (for example) but also of attention
>>                     and will - and any other categories
>>
>>                 you
>>
>>                     abstract from an experience.
>>
>>                     Andy
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                     *Andy Blunden*
>>                     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>                     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>                     On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>
>>                         Or reproducing the part that
>>                         represents the whole? Like a
>>                         fractal? I
>>                         think it is the similarity across
>>                         scales that makes an experience
>>                         proleptic, or gives that 'bliss
>>                         conferred at the beginning of the road
>>
>>                 to
>>
>>                         redemption" that Vasilyuk refers
>>                         to.  You have an experience on
>>
>>             several
>>
>>                         timescales and so a sense of
>>                         deja-vu is central to having an
>>
>>             experience.
>>
>>                         This is what I am thinking about
>>                         after reading both the paper of
>>
>>             Dewey's
>>
>>                         and your recent piece on
>>                         perezhivanie, Andy, although I am
>>                         picking up
>>
>>                 on a
>>
>>                         small piece of the last email in
>>                         this chain -- : If something is only
>>                         itself in its whole then you can't
>>                         study it, is what is bothering me.
>>
>>                 Beth
>>
>>                         On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM,
>>                         Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>                         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>                         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>
>>                         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>>                              Not "getting at something",
>>                         Michael. Just pursuing
>>                              this question you raised
>>                         about Dewey's saying that the
>>                              aesthetic quality of medieval
>>                         buildings arises from
>>                              their not being "planned"
>>                         like buildings are nowadays.
>>                              He goes on to say "Every work
>>                         of art follows the plan
>>                              of, and pattern of, a
>>                         complete experience." The puzzle
>>                              he is raising here is the
>>                         completeness of an
>>                              experience which gives it its
>>                         aesthetic quality, and
>>                              this cannot be created by
>>                         assembling together parts in
>>                              the way a modern building is
>>                         planned. An experience -
>>                              the kind of thing which
>>                         sticks in your mind - is an
>>                              original or prior unity, not
>>                         a combination, and this
>>                              is what gives a work of art
>>                         that ineffable quality,
>>                              something which can only be
>>                         transmitted by reproducing
>>                              that whole of an experience.
>>
>>                              Andy
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                              *Andy Blunden*
>>                         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>                         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                                     <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                              On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
>>                         Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                  Andy,
>>
>>                                  I'm still not sure about
>>                         your question.  Did I set
>>                                  out to have that
>>                         experience, that morning...no, I
>>                                  don't think so (it was a
>>                         long time ago, but I'm
>>                                  pretty sure no).  Could I
>>                         have just treated it as
>>                                  an indiscriminate
>>                         activity, probably, I had done
>>                                  so before.
>>
>>                                  But I am guessing you're
>>                         getting a something here
>>                                  Andy?
>>
>>                                  Michael
>>
>>                                  -----Original Message-----
>>                                  From:
>>
>> xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                         <mailto:
>>                         osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                                                         [mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13 <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>
>>                                                         <mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13
>>                         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>>=
>>
>>             osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>                                                         <mailto:
>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>
>>                         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>] On
>>                         Behalf Of
>>                                  Andy Blunden
>>                                  Sent: Thursday, July 16,
>>                         2015 12:21 PM
>>                                  To: eXtended Mind,
>>                         Culture, Activity
>>                                  Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
>>                         Having an experience
>>
>>                                  YOu said: "... But that
>>                         time I had the experience
>>                                  with the paintings..."
>>
>>                                  I mean that was an
>>                         experience. Did you set out
>>                                  that morning to have that
>>                         experience?
>>                                  RE, your question: "what
>>                         does he mean when he says
>>                                  you can't do things
>>                         indiscriminately and have
>>                                  vital experience, but you
>>                         also can't plan things?"
>>                                  Andy
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                  *Andy Blunden*
>>                         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>                         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                                         <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                  On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM,
>>                         Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                      Well I'm not sure I
>>                         understand your question
>>                                      Andy, but perhaps it has
>>                                      something to do with
>>                         my grandfather's favorite
>>                                      saying (translated from
>>                                      Yiddish),
>>
>>                                      Man plans, God laughs.
>>
>>                                      Michael
>>
>>                                      -----Original
>>                         Message-----
>>                                      From:
>>                                      xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>
>>                 ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                 <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>                                                             <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                                                             [mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>                         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>
>>                                                             <mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bmglassman>>=
>>                         ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                                             <mailto:
>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>]
>>                                      On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>                                      Sent: Thursday, July
>>                         16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>                                      To:
>>                         xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>                         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>                                                             <mailto:
>> xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>
>>                         <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>                                      Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
>>                         Having an experience
>>
>>                                      So Michael, there was
>>                         just that one occasion,
>>                                      in all your
>>                         museum-going, when you had an
>>                                      experience. Was that
>>                         planned?
>>                                      (I don't mean to say
>>                         you haven't had a number
>>                                      of such experiences,
>>                                      Michael ... just some
>>                         number actually)
>>
>>                                      Andy
>>
>>             ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                                      *Andy Blunden*
>>                         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>                         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>                                                             <
>> http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>                                      On 17/07/2015 1:19
>>                         AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                                          Hi Larry and all,
>>
>>                                          I think this is
>>                         one of the most complex
>>                                          aspects of
>>                         experience, what does he mean
>>                                          when he says you
>>                         can't do things
>>                                          indiscriminately
>>                         and have vital
>>                                          experience, but
>>                         you also can't plan
>>                                          things?  I have
>>                         discussed (argued) about
>>                                          this a lot with
>>                         my students. I have
>>                                          especially seen
>>                         him raise this point in at
>>                                          least two of his
>>                         great works, Democracy
>>                                          and Education and
>>                         Experience and Nature -
>>                                          and again of
>>                         course in Art as Experience
>>                                          (notice he is not
>>                         saying how Art enters
>>                                          into experience
>>                         but how art is experience
>>                                          - I have come to
>>                         notice these little
>>                                          things more and
>>                         more in his writing).
>>
>>                                          The difficulty we
>>                         have, at least in the
>>                                          United States
>>                         because of the dominance of
>>                                          the idea of
>>                         meta-cognition, is that we too
>>                                          often translate
>>                         what individuals are
>>                                          bringing in to
>>                         experience to organize it
>>                                          as a form of
>>                         meta-cognition. It is kind
>>                                          of possible to
>>                         make that interpretation
>>                                          from Democracy
>>                         and Education, although
>>                                          what I think he
>>                         is doing more is arguing
>>                                          against
>>                         misinterpretations of his work as
>>                                          random, child
>>                         centered activities.  I
>>                                          think he is
>>                         clearer in Experience and
>>                                          Nature that we
>>                         bring in who we are at the
>>                                          moment into the
>>                         activity, and use who we
>>                                          are (I don't want
>>                         to say identity) as an
>>                                          organizing
>>                         principle for what we do.  It
>>                                          is perhaps one of
>>                         the places where Dewey
>>                                          and Vygotsky are
>>                         close. Perhaps I can use
>>                                          the same Jackson
>>                         Pollock example.  The
>>                                          first few times I
>>                         saw his paintings I was
>>                                          trying to
>>                         "apprecitate" them because I was
>>                                          told that was the
>>                         best way to experience
>>                                          them.  Dewey says
>>                         no vital experience
>>                                          there because my
>>                         activities become stilted
>>                                          and artificia
>>                                              l.  Sometimes
>>                         I went through the
>>                                          museum and just
>>                         looked at pictures, one to
>>                                          the other.  No
>>                         vital experience there,
>>                                          just random
>>                         threads. But that time I had
>>                                          the experience
>>                         with the paintings I was
>>                                          allowing who I
>>                         was, what had been built up
>>                                          in the trajectory
>>                         of my life to enter into
>>                                          my experience
>>                         with the painting, making it
>>                                          a vital
>>                         experience.  I think Dewey makes
>>                                          the argument in
>>                         Experience and Nature that
>>                                          it is not just
>>                         the experience the moment
>>                                          before, but the
>>                         experiences leading to
>>                                          that experience,
>>                         the context of my life,
>>                                          of my parent's
>>                         life, of a long line of
>>                                          historical
>>                         experiences.
>>
>>                                          Anyway, my take.
>>
>>                                          Michael
>>
>>                                          -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                         --
>>                         Beth Ferholt
>>                         Assistant Professor
>>                         Department of Early Childhood and
>>                         Art Education
>>                         Brooklyn College, City University
>>                         of New York
>>                         2900 Bedford Avenue
>>                         Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>
>>                         Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>                         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu> <mailto:
>> bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>>
>>                         <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
>>                         Phone: (718) 951-5205
>>                         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>                         <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>                         Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>                         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>                         <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>
>>
>>
>>                 --
>>
>>                 Both environment and species change in the
>>                 course of time, and thus
>>                 ecological niches are not stable and given
>>                 forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>                 Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>
>>
>>
>>             --
>>
>>             Both environment and species change in the
>>             course of time, and thus
>>             ecological niches are not stable and given
>>             forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>             Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Beth Ferholt
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>
>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>>
>
>


-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816