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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



According to Mikhail Munipov (whom you have met on FaceBook, Beth) that process of "life standing still" is characteristic of the cathartic moment of a perezhivanie. And David, if I associate catharsis with perezhivanie I am more referring to its meaning in Greek drama, not 19th century medicine or Freudian psychoanalysis, all of these being derivatives of the original Greek, I think,

Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 18/07/2015 1:03 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
Yes, this really makes sense! So it is the doing that is the practical energy. SO Marx was writing about a method of perezhivanie?

I may be conflating things but I am trying to piece together several pieces (like how in a big city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto itself, and then you find out it is in the same area as another neighborhood that you know well -- but you did not know they were connected -- ).

Actually that process of piecing together across the gaps is also related to what we are talking about. Of course. When you age in a city you also have the depth of the memories in layers at a given place, and this stringing together across time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life: moments in which "life stands still her" strung together like a strand of pearls = with gaps between them.

Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread
    particularly exciting!
    There is one thing I'd like to add, which is implicit
    in Mike's quote from Marx:
    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
    which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both
    suffering and *doing* [Tatigkeit in German].
    The doing means that an experience (to be an
    experience, and stand out from the background of
    experience, have significance and form a whole)
    entails wilfully changing the world, even if that
    changing is trivial, such as changing other people's
    attitudes to you or most trivially changing how you
    henceforth interact with a certain kind of situation,
    person or whatever. But doing is doing, it is not just
    going through the motions or habit. And that is why
    experiences in this sense are so important to the
    development of the personality and the world,

    Andy
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    *Andy Blunden*
    http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
    On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:

        This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever
        felt to what interests me
        most.  It covers all the interests that brought me
        first to play and then
to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie. Before I went to LCHC I was a
        preschool teacher and this is a profession that I
        think can be described as
        being, in its first part, responsible for
        reflecting upon the 'having an
        experience' that is happening all around you every
        day (time is so
        condensed for young children so it is happening
        all the time) so that you
        can support the self-creation beings who are able
        to "have an experience''?

        Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher
        you find that what is
        most important is to describe what is happening in
        a way that is true to
        the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us
        how to do this.  If you
        don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who
        has had the words that
        give it life removed from its mouth: you just have
        dirt, nothing even
        remotely related to the Golem, not even weight.

        I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for
        us those properties that
        will characterize the experience as a whole.  What
        Monica named 'preschool
        didactics from within' is a process of working
        with these people in
        research. This sounds like 5D.

        Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two
        purposes of art criticism.  One
        is entirely in the domain of social life, he says,
        guiding what art creates
        in its audience in useful directions.  The other
        is to 'conserve the effect
        of art as art'.  He says we know this is needed,
        because art is a unity,
        and without the whole criticism is not related to
        art -- he calls what we
        have left, without the unity, a wound.  But
        criticism of art treats art as
a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says. Vygtosky shows how to avoid
        this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.

        As a preschool teacher you know that art is life
        because if you forget this
        then you have unhappy children and your job is
        impossible, or worse.  As an
        researcher, every time you hit something hard you
        can revert to the first
        purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the
        part that does not conserve
        the effect, without any consequences on your
        livelihood.  If we could have
        a system of science that makes it impossible to
        leave the hardest questions
        to the first purpose of criticism, then we could
        have so many people
        working on these hardest questions in a meaningful
        way, but I do not know
        how to do this even in my own work.

        Except one way is to place the desires of the
        teachers and children before
        your own.  This is sort of a method of love or
        empathy.  Kiyo suggested The
        Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think)
        and this is related, also
        Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality
        that the people she is
        studying see.

        Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.

        Beth


        On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet
        Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>
        wrote:

            Mike, could you elaborate on that?

            Alfredo
            ________________________________________
            From:
            xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
            <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
            behalf of
            mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>
            Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
            To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
            Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience

            Alfredo--

            a "method of organization" seems close to a
            synonym for design.

            mike

            On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo
            Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
            <mailto:a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>>
            wrote:

                I like very much how Greg brings in a
                methodological issue here with his
                mention about ethnography and his reading
                of "fidelity"; that the latter

            is

                not about representing exactly, but about
                describing events in terms of
                consequences for the participants, which
                they display for each other in
                their actual practice.

                This methodological aspect makes me think
                that the the notion of ANALYSIS
                BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca
                before, is useful here. Unit
                analysis reminds us that, as units,
                experiences, as concrete and real
                phenomena, have some form of organization
                that extends in time. That is
                why, if I understood the discussion below
                correctly, Beth is warned not

            to

                think of the unit of experience as a unit
                "in itself".

                Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the
                differentiation between self-action and
                transaction. In self action, things are
                explained by their own powers.

            This

                is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have
                referred to as analysis by
                elements. In transaction, they say,
                “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
                action, without final attribution to
                ‘elements’ or other presumptively
                detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or
                ‘realities,’ and without isolation

            of

                presumptively detachable ‘relations’ from
                such detachable ‘elements’”. An
                experience can be studied precisely
                because it is not a thing in itself:

            it

                is always a moving, gesture, a "method of
                organization" as Dewey &

            Bentley

                write.

                I thought this my add something to your
                fascinating discussion,
                Alfredo


                ________________________________________
                From:
                xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>
                <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
                <mailto:iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on
                behalf of
                mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
                <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu>>
                Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
                To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture,
                Activity
                Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience

                Marx: It is only in a social context that
                subjectivism and objectivism,
                spiritualism and materialism, activity and
                passivity, cease to be
                antinomies and thus cease to exist as such
                antinomies. The resolution of
                the theoretical contradictions is possible
                only through practical means,
                only through the practical energy of man.
                Their resolution is not by any
                means, therefore, only a problem of
                knowledge, but is a real problem of
                life which philosophy was unable to solve
                precisely because it saw there

            a

                purely theoretical problem."

                On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy
                Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>

            wrote:

                    No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:

                        "This unity is neither emotional,
                    practical, nor
                        intellectual, for these terms name
                    distinctions that
                        reflection can make within it. In
                    discourse//about//an
                        experience, we must make use of
                    these adjectives of
                        interpretation. In going over an
                    experience in
                        mind//after/ /its occurrence, we
                    may find that one
                        property rather than another was
                    sufficiently dominant
                        so that it characterizes the
                    experience as a whole."

                    Isn't this beautiful scientific prose!
                    We make these distinction when

            we

                    *reflect* on an experience. And
                    perhaps we include the experience in

            our

                    autobiography, act it out on the
                    stage, analyse it scientifically, all

            of

                    which presupposes analysis and
                    synthesis. But it is important to

                recognise

                    that the unity is prior. It is not
                    only a unity of emotion and

            cognition

                    (for example) but also of attention
                    and will - and any other categories

                you

                    abstract from an experience.

                    Andy
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    *Andy Blunden*
                    http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
                    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
                    On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:

                        Or reproducing the part that
                        represents the whole? Like a
                        fractal? I
                        think it is the similarity across
                        scales that makes an experience
                        proleptic, or gives that 'bliss
                        conferred at the beginning of the road

                to

                        redemption" that Vasilyuk refers
                        to.  You have an experience on

            several

                        timescales and so a sense of
                        deja-vu is central to having an

            experience.

                        This is what I am thinking about
                        after reading both the paper of

            Dewey's

                        and your recent piece on
                        perezhivanie, Andy, although I am
                        picking up

                on a

                        small piece of the last email in
                        this chain -- : If something is only
                        itself in its whole then you can't
                        study it, is what is bothering me.

                Beth

                        On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM,
                        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
                        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

                             Not "getting at something",
                        Michael. Just pursuing
                             this question you raised
                        about Dewey's saying that the
                             aesthetic quality of medieval
                        buildings arises from
                             their not being "planned"
                        like buildings are nowadays.
                             He goes on to say "Every work
                        of art follows the plan
                             of, and pattern of, a
                        complete experience." The puzzle
                             he is raising here is the
                        completeness of an
                             experience which gives it its
                        aesthetic quality, and
                             this cannot be created by
                        assembling together parts in
                             the way a modern building is
                        planned. An experience -
                             the kind of thing which
                        sticks in your mind - is an
                             original or prior unity, not
                        a combination, and this
                             is what gives a work of art
                        that ineffable quality,
                             something which can only be
                        transmitted by reproducing
                             that whole of an experience.

                             Andy
                         ------------------------------------------------------------
                             *Andy Blunden*
                        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
                        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
                             On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM,
                        Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                 Andy,

                                 I'm still not sure about
                        your question.  Did I set
                                 out to have that
                        experience, that morning...no, I
                                 don't think so (it was a
                        long time ago, but I'm
                                 pretty sure no).  Could I
                        have just treated it as
                                 an indiscriminate
                        activity, probably, I had done
                                 so before.

                                 But I am guessing you're
                        getting a something here
                                 Andy?

                                 Michael

                                 -----Original Message-----
                                 From:
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                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
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                        osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
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                        <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%252Bglassman.13>>=

            osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>

<mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
                        <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>] On
                        Behalf Of
                                 Andy Blunden
                                 Sent: Thursday, July 16,
                        2015 12:21 PM
                                 To: eXtended Mind,
                        Culture, Activity
                                 Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
                        Having an experience

                                 YOu said: "... But that
                        time I had the experience
                                 with the paintings..."

                                 I mean that was an
                        experience. Did you set out
                                 that morning to have that
                        experience?
                                 RE, your question: "what
                        does he mean when he says
                                 you can't do things
                        indiscriminately and have
                                 vital experience, but you
                        also can't plan things?"
                                 Andy

                         ------------------------------------------------------------
                                 *Andy Blunden*
                        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
                        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
                                 On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM,
                        Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                     Well I'm not sure I
                        understand your question
                                     Andy, but perhaps it has
                                     something to do with
                        my grandfather's favorite
                                     saying (translated from
                                     Yiddish),

                                     Man plans, God laughs.

                                     Michael

                                     -----Original
                        Message-----
                                     From:
                                     xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=

                ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
                <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>

<mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
                        <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
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                        <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>>]
                                     On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
                                     Sent: Thursday, July
                        16, 2015 12:04 PM
                                     To:
                        xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
                        <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
                                     Subject: [Xmca-l] Re:
                        Having an experience

                                     So Michael, there was
                        just that one occasion,
                                     in all your
                        museum-going, when you had an
                                     experience. Was that
                        planned?
                                     (I don't mean to say
                        you haven't had a number
                                     of such experiences,
                                     Michael ... just some
                        number actually)

                                     Andy

            ------------------------------------------------------------

                                     *Andy Blunden*
                        http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
                        <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>

                                     On 17/07/2015 1:19
                        AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:

                                         Hi Larry and all,

                                         I think this is
                        one of the most complex
                                         aspects of
                        experience, what does he mean
                                         when he says you
                        can't do things
                                         indiscriminately
                        and have vital
                                         experience, but
                        you also can't plan
                                         things?  I have
                        discussed (argued) about
                                         this a lot with
                        my students. I have
                                         especially seen
                        him raise this point in at
                                         least two of his
                        great works, Democracy
                                         and Education and
                        Experience and Nature -
                                         and again of
                        course in Art as Experience
                                         (notice he is not
                        saying how Art enters
                                         into experience
                        but how art is experience
                                         - I have come to
                        notice these little
                                         things more and
                        more in his writing).

                                         The difficulty we
                        have, at least in the
                                         United States
                        because of the dominance of
                                         the idea of
                        meta-cognition, is that we too
                                         often translate
                        what individuals are
                                         bringing in to
                        experience to organize it
                                         as a form of
                        meta-cognition. It is kind
                                         of possible to
                        make that interpretation
                                         from Democracy
                        and Education, although
                                         what I think he
                        is doing more is arguing
                                         against
                        misinterpretations of his work as
                                         random, child
                        centered activities.  I
                                         think he is
                        clearer in Experience and
                                         Nature that we
                        bring in who we are at the
                                         moment into the
                        activity, and use who we
                                         are (I don't want
                        to say identity) as an
                                         organizing
                        principle for what we do.  It
                                         is perhaps one of
                        the places where Dewey
                                         and Vygotsky are
                        close. Perhaps I can use
                                         the same Jackson
                        Pollock example.  The
                                         first few times I
                        saw his paintings I was
                                         trying to
                        "apprecitate" them because I was
                                         told that was the
                        best way to experience
                                         them.  Dewey says
                        no vital experience
                                         there because my
                        activities become stilted
                                         and artificia
                                             l.  Sometimes
                        I went through the
                                         museum and just
                        looked at pictures, one to
                                         the other.  No
                        vital experience there,
                                         just random
                        threads. But that time I had
                                         the experience
                        with the paintings I was
                                         allowing who I
                        was, what had been built up
                                         in the trajectory
                        of my life to enter into
                                         my experience
                        with the painting, making it
                                         a vital
                        experience.  I think Dewey makes
                                         the argument in
                        Experience and Nature that
                                         it is not just
                        the experience the moment
                                         before, but the
                        experiences leading to
                                         that experience,
                        the context of my life,
                                         of my parent's
                        life, of a long line of
                                         historical
                        experiences.

                                         Anyway, my take.

                                         Michael

                                         -





                        --
                        Beth Ferholt
                        Assistant Professor
                        Department of Early Childhood and
                        Art Education
                        Brooklyn College, City University
                        of New York
                        2900 Bedford Avenue
                        Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

                        Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
                        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu> <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
                        <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>>
                        Phone: (718) 951-5205
                        <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
                        <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
                        Fax: (718) 951-4816
                        <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
                        <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>



                --

                Both environment and species change in the
                course of time, and thus
                ecological niches are not stable and given
                forever (Polotova & Storch,
                Ecological Niche, 2008)



            --

            Both environment and species change in the
            course of time, and thus
            ecological niches are not stable and given
            forever (Polotova & Storch,
            Ecological Niche, 2008)







--
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816