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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



Yes, this really makes sense!  So it is the doing that is the practical
energy.  SO Marx was writing about a method of perezhivanie?

I may be conflating things but I am trying to piece together several pieces
(like how in a big city you know a whole neighborhood as a world unto
itself, and then you find out it is in the same area as another
neighborhood that you know well -- but you did not know they were connected
-- ).

Actually that process of piecing together across the gaps is also related
to what we are talking about.  Of course.  When you age in a city you also
have the depth of the memories in layers at a given place, and this
stringing together across time and place is what Virginia Woolf calls life:
moments in which "life stands still her" strung together like a strand of
pearls = with gaps between them.

Beth

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Like you, Beth, I have found this xmca thread particularly exciting!
> There is one thing I'd like to add, which is implicit in Mike's quote from
> Marx:
> https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm#art
> which is that Dewey holds an experience to be both suffering and *doing*
> [Tatigkeit in German].
> The doing means that an experience (to be an experience, and stand out
> from the background of experience, have significance and form a whole)
> entails wilfully changing the world, even if that changing is trivial, such
> as changing other people's attitudes to you or most trivially changing how
> you henceforth interact with a certain kind of situation, person or
> whatever. But doing is doing, it is not just going through the motions or
> habit. And that is why experiences in this sense are so important to the
> development of the personality and the world,
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> On 18/07/2015 4:40 AM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>
>> This chain of ideas is the closest I have ever felt to what interests me
>> most.  It covers all the interests that brought me first to play and then
>> to the playworlds and then to perezhivanie.  Before I went to LCHC I was a
>> preschool teacher and this is a profession that I think can be described
>> as
>> being, in its first part, responsible for reflecting upon the 'having an
>> experience' that is happening all around you every day (time is so
>> condensed for young children so it is happening all the time) so that you
>> can support the self-creation beings who are able to "have an
>> experience''?
>>
>> Like with Greg's students, as a preschool teacher you find that what is
>> most important is to describe what is happening in a way that is true to
>> the children's experiences. Vivian Paley shows us how to do this.  If you
>> don;t do this you find dealing with the Golem who has had the words that
>> give it life removed from its mouth: you just have dirt, nothing even
>> remotely related to the Golem, not even weight.
>>
>> I think it is the teacher/artists who can find for us those properties
>> that
>> will characterize the experience as a whole.  What Monica named 'preschool
>> didactics from within' is a process of working with these people in
>> research. This sounds like 5D.
>>
>> Andy, Vygotsky is talking about the the two purposes of art criticism.
>> One
>> is entirely in the domain of social life, he says, guiding what art
>> creates
>> in its audience in useful directions.  The other is to 'conserve the
>> effect
>> of art as art'.  He says we know this is needed, because art is a unity,
>> and without the whole criticism is not related to art -- he calls what we
>> have left, without the unity, a wound.  But criticism of art treats art as
>> a parliamentary speech -- often -- he says.  Vygtosky shows how to avoid
>> this in the chapter on Bunin's short story.
>>
>> As a preschool teacher you know that art is life because if you forget
>> this
>> then you have unhappy children and your job is impossible, or worse.  As
>> an
>> researcher, every time you hit something hard you can revert to the first
>> purpose of art/life criticism, or anyhow to the part that does not
>> conserve
>> the effect, without any consequences on your livelihood.  If we could have
>> a system of science that makes it impossible to leave the hardest
>> questions
>> to the first purpose of criticism, then we could have so many people
>> working on these hardest questions in a meaningful way, but I do not know
>> how to do this even in my own work.
>>
>> Except one way is to place the desires of the teachers and children before
>> your own.  This is sort of a method of love or empathy.  Kiyo suggested
>> The
>> Method of Hope by Miyazaki (no relation I think) and this is related, also
>> Edith Turner's work where she sees the reality that the people she is
>> studying see.
>>
>> Maybe it is a method of perezhivanie.
>>
>> Beth
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Mike, could you elaborate on that?
>>>
>>> Alfredo
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 19:40
>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>
>>> Alfredo--
>>>
>>> a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design.
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here with his
>>>> mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the latter
>>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>> not about representing exactly, but about describing events in terms of
>>>> consequences for the participants, which they display for each other in
>>>> their actual practice.
>>>>
>>>> This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of
>>>> ANALYSIS
>>>> BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here. Unit
>>>> analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and real
>>>> phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time. That is
>>>> why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is warned not
>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself".
>>>>
>>>> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between self-action and
>>>> transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own powers.
>>>>
>>> This
>>>
>>>> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis by
>>>> elements. In transaction, they say, “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
>>>> action, without final attribution to ‘elements’ or other presumptively
>>>> detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or ‘realities,’ and without isolation
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> presumptively detachable ‘relations’ from such detachable ‘elements’”.
>>>> An
>>>> experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in itself:
>>>>
>>> it
>>>
>>>> is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey &
>>>>
>>> Bentley
>>>
>>>> write.
>>>>
>>>> I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion,
>>>> Alfredo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
>>>> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
>>>> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
>>>> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>
>>>> Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
>>>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be
>>>> antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
>>>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical means,
>>>> only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not by any
>>>> means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real problem of
>>>> life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it saw there
>>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>> purely theoretical problem."
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
>>>>>
>>>>>     "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor
>>>>>     intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that
>>>>>     reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an
>>>>>     experience, we must make use of these adjectives of
>>>>>     interpretation. In going over an experience in
>>>>>     mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one
>>>>>     property rather than another was sufficiently dominant
>>>>>     so that it characterizes the experience as a whole."
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction when
>>>>>
>>>> we
>>>
>>>> *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the experience in
>>>>>
>>>> our
>>>
>>>> autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it scientifically, all
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>
>>>> which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to
>>>>>
>>>> recognise
>>>>
>>>>> that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and
>>>>>
>>>> cognition
>>>
>>>> (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other categories
>>>>>
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>>> abstract from an experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>> On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a fractal? I
>>>>>> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an experience
>>>>>> proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the beginning of the road
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to.  You have an experience on
>>>>>>
>>>>> several
>>>
>>>> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an
>>>>>>
>>>>> experience.
>>>
>>>> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper of
>>>>>>
>>>>> Dewey's
>>>
>>>> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am picking up
>>>>>>
>>>>> on a
>>>>
>>>>> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something is only
>>>>>> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is bothering me.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Beth
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing
>>>>>>      this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the
>>>>>>      aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from
>>>>>>      their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays.
>>>>>>      He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan
>>>>>>      of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle
>>>>>>      he is raising here is the completeness of an
>>>>>>      experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and
>>>>>>      this cannot be created by assembling together parts in
>>>>>>      the way a modern building is planned. An experience -
>>>>>>      the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an
>>>>>>      original or prior unity, not a combination, and this
>>>>>>      is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality,
>>>>>>      something which can only be transmitted by reproducing
>>>>>>      that whole of an experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Andy
>>>>>>      ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>      *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>      http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>      <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>      On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Andy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          I'm still not sure about your question.  Did I set
>>>>>>          out to have that experience, that morning...no, I
>>>>>>          don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm
>>>>>>          pretty sure no).  Could I have just treated it as
>>>>>>          an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done
>>>>>>          so before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          But I am guessing you're getting a something here
>>>>>>          Andy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>          From:
>>>>>>          xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:
>>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>          [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
>>>>>>          <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>=
>>>>>>
>>>>> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>>          <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>          Andy Blunden
>>>>>>          Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM
>>>>>>          To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>          Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience
>>>>>>          with the paintings..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          I mean that was an experience. Did you set out
>>>>>>          that morning to have that experience?
>>>>>>          RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says
>>>>>>          you can't do things indiscriminately and have
>>>>>>          vital experience, but you also can't plan things?"
>>>>>>          Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>          *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>          http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>          <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>          On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Well I'm not sure I understand your question
>>>>>>              Andy, but perhaps it has
>>>>>>              something to do with my grandfather's favorite
>>>>>>              saying (translated from
>>>>>>              Yiddish),
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Man plans, God laughs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>              From:
>>>>>>              xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
>>>>>>
>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>
>>>>>              <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>              [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
>>>>>>              <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>=
>>>>>> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>              <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
>>>>>>              On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>>>>>              Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM
>>>>>>              To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>              <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>              Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              So Michael, there was just that one occasion,
>>>>>>              in all your museum-going, when you had an
>>>>>>              experience. Was that planned?
>>>>>>              (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number
>>>>>>              of such experiences,
>>>>>>              Michael ... just some number actually)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>>              *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>              http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>>>>>>              <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  Hi Larry and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  I think this is one of the most complex
>>>>>>                  aspects of experience, what does he mean
>>>>>>                  when he says you can't do things
>>>>>>                  indiscriminately and have vital
>>>>>>                  experience, but you also can't plan
>>>>>>                  things?  I have discussed (argued) about
>>>>>>                  this a lot with my students.  I have
>>>>>>                  especially seen him raise this point in at
>>>>>>                  least two of his great works, Democracy
>>>>>>                  and Education and Experience and Nature -
>>>>>>                  and again of course in Art as Experience
>>>>>>                  (notice he is not saying how Art enters
>>>>>>                  into experience but how art is experience
>>>>>>                  - I have come to notice these little
>>>>>>                  things more and more in his writing).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  The difficulty we have, at least in the
>>>>>>                  United States because of the dominance of
>>>>>>                  the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too
>>>>>>                  often translate what individuals are
>>>>>>                  bringing in to experience to organize it
>>>>>>                  as a form of meta-cognition.  It is kind
>>>>>>                  of possible to make that interpretation
>>>>>>                  from Democracy and Education, although
>>>>>>                  what I think he is doing more is arguing
>>>>>>                  against misinterpretations of his work as
>>>>>>                  random, child centered activities.  I
>>>>>>                  think he is clearer in Experience and
>>>>>>                  Nature that we bring in who we are at the
>>>>>>                  moment into the activity, and use who we
>>>>>>                  are (I don't want to say identity) as an
>>>>>>                  organizing principle for what we do.  It
>>>>>>                  is perhaps one of the places where Dewey
>>>>>>                  and Vygotsky are close.  Perhaps I can use
>>>>>>                  the same Jackson Pollock example.  The
>>>>>>                  first few times I saw his paintings I was
>>>>>>                  trying to "apprecitate" them because I was
>>>>>>                  told that was the best way to experience
>>>>>>                  them.  Dewey says no vital experience
>>>>>>                  there because my activities become stilted
>>>>>>                  and artificia
>>>>>>                      l.  Sometimes I went through the
>>>>>>                  museum and just looked at pictures, one to
>>>>>>                  the other.  No vital experience there,
>>>>>>                  just random threads. But that time I had
>>>>>>                  the experience with the paintings I was
>>>>>>                  allowing who I was, what had been built up
>>>>>>                  in the trajectory of my life to enter into
>>>>>>                  my experience with the painting, making it
>>>>>>                  a vital experience.  I think Dewey makes
>>>>>>                  the argument in Experience and Nature that
>>>>>>                  it is not just the experience the moment
>>>>>>                  before, but the experiences leading to
>>>>>>                  that experience, the context of my life,
>>>>>>                  of my parent's life, of a long line of
>>>>>>                  historical experiences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  Anyway, my take.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
>>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>>> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
>>> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch,
>>> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816