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[Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience



Alfredo--

a "method of organization" seems close to a synonym for design.

mike

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
wrote:

> I like very much how Greg brings in a methodological issue here with his
> mention about ethnography and his reading of "fidelity"; that the latter is
> not about representing exactly, but about describing events in terms of
> consequences for the participants, which they display for each other in
> their actual practice.
>
> This methodological aspect makes me think that the the notion of ANALYSIS
> BY UNITS, which has been discussed in xmca before, is useful here. Unit
> analysis reminds us that, as units, experiences, as concrete and real
> phenomena, have some form of organization that extends in time. That is
> why, if I understood the discussion below correctly, Beth is warned not to
> think of the unit of experience as a unit "in itself".
>
> Dewey and Bentley 1949 made the differentiation between self-action and
> transaction. In self action, things are explained by their own powers. This
> is, I believe, what Vygotsky would have referred to as analysis by
> elements. In transaction, they say, “deal[s] with aspects and phases of
> action, without final attribution to ‘elements’ or other presumptively
> detachable ‘entities,’ ‘essences,’ or ‘realities,’ and without isolation of
> presumptively detachable ‘relations’ from such detachable ‘elements’”. An
> experience can be studied precisely because it is not a thing in itself: it
> is always a moving, gesture, a "method of organization" as Dewey & Bentley
> write.
>
> I thought this my add something to your fascinating discussion,
> Alfredo
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces+a.g.jornet=iped.uio.no@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> Sent: 17 July 2015 18:23
> To: Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
>
> Marx: It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity, cease to be
> antinomies and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical means,
> only through the practical energy of man. Their resolution is not by any
> means, therefore, only a problem of knowledge, but is a real problem of
> life which philosophy was unable to solve precisely because it saw there a
> purely theoretical problem."
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
> > No, no, Beth. As Dewey says:
> >
> >    "This unity is neither emotional, practical, nor
> >    intellectual, for these terms name distinctions that
> >    reflection can make within it. In discourse//about//an
> >    experience, we must make use of these adjectives of
> >    interpretation. In going over an experience in
> >    mind//after/ /its occurrence, we may find that one
> >    property rather than another was sufficiently dominant
> >    so that it characterizes the experience as a whole."
> >
> > Isn't this beautiful scientific prose! We make these distinction when we
> > *reflect* on an experience. And perhaps we include the experience in our
> > autobiography, act it out on the stage, analyse it scientifically, all of
> > which presupposes analysis and synthesis. But it is important to
> recognise
> > that the unity is prior. It is not only a unity of emotion and cognition
> > (for example) but also of attention and will - and any other categories
> you
> > abstract from an experience.
> >
> > Andy
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > On 17/07/2015 3:00 PM, Beth Ferholt wrote:
> >
> >> Or reproducing the part that represents the whole? Like a fractal? I
> >> think it is the similarity across scales that makes an experience
> >> proleptic, or gives that 'bliss conferred at the beginning of the road
> to
> >> redemption" that Vasilyuk refers to.  You have an experience on several
> >> timescales and so a sense of deja-vu is central to having an experience.
> >> This is what I am thinking about after reading both the paper of Dewey's
> >> and your recent piece on perezhivanie, Andy, although I am picking up
> on a
> >> small piece of the last email in this chain -- : If something is only
> >> itself in its whole then you can't study it, is what is bothering me.
> Beth
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Not "getting at something", Michael. Just pursuing
> >>     this question you raised about Dewey's saying that the
> >>     aesthetic quality of medieval buildings arises from
> >>     their not being "planned" like buildings are nowadays.
> >>     He goes on to say "Every work of art follows the plan
> >>     of, and pattern of, a complete experience." The puzzle
> >>     he is raising here is the completeness of an
> >>     experience which gives it its aesthetic quality, and
> >>     this cannot be created by assembling together parts in
> >>     the way a modern building is planned. An experience -
> >>     the kind of thing which sticks in your mind - is an
> >>     original or prior unity, not a combination, and this
> >>     is what gives a work of art that ineffable quality,
> >>     something which can only be transmitted by reproducing
> >>     that whole of an experience.
> >>
> >>     Andy
> >>     ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>     *Andy Blunden*
> >>     http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>     <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> >>     On 17/07/2015 2:32 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> >>
> >>         Andy,
> >>
> >>         I'm still not sure about your question.  Did I set
> >>         out to have that experience, that morning...no, I
> >>         don't think so (it was a long time ago, but I'm
> >>         pretty sure no).  Could I have just treated it as
> >>         an indiscriminate activity, probably, I had done
> >>         so before.
> >>
> >>         But I am guessing you're getting a something here
> >>         Andy?
> >>
> >>         Michael
> >>
> >>         -----Original Message-----
> >>         From:
> >>         xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:
> >> osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >>         [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+glassman.13
> >>         <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bglassman.13>=osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>         <mailto:osu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of
> >>         Andy Blunden
> >>         Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:21 PM
> >>         To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>         Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> >>
> >>         YOu said: "... But that time I had the experience
> >>         with the paintings..."
> >>
> >>         I mean that was an experience. Did you set out
> >>         that morning to have that experience?
> >>         RE, your question: "what does he mean when he says
> >>         you can't do things indiscriminately and have
> >>         vital experience, but you also can't plan things?"
> >>         Andy
> >>
> >>         ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>         *Andy Blunden*
> >>         http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>         <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> >>         On 17/07/2015 2:09 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> >>
> >>             Well I'm not sure I understand your question
> >>             Andy, but perhaps it has
> >>             something to do with my grandfather's favorite
> >>             saying (translated from
> >>             Yiddish),
> >>
> >>             Man plans, God laughs.
> >>
> >>             Michael
> >>
> >>             -----Original Message-----
> >>             From:
> >>             xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=
> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>             <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >>             [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
> >>             <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>=
> >> ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>             <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
> >>             On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >>             Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:04 PM
> >>             To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >>             Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Having an experience
> >>
> >>             So Michael, there was just that one occasion,
> >>             in all your museum-going, when you had an
> >>             experience. Was that planned?
> >>             (I don't mean to say you haven't had a number
> >>             of such experiences,
> >>             Michael ... just some number actually)
> >>
> >>             Andy
> >>             ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>             *Andy Blunden*
> >>             http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>             <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> >>
> >>             On 17/07/2015 1:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
> >>
> >>                 Hi Larry and all,
> >>
> >>                 I think this is one of the most complex
> >>                 aspects of experience, what does he mean
> >>                 when he says you can't do things
> >>                 indiscriminately and have vital
> >>                 experience, but you also can't plan
> >>                 things?  I have discussed (argued) about
> >>                 this a lot with my students.  I have
> >>                 especially seen him raise this point in at
> >>                 least two of his great works, Democracy
> >>                 and Education and Experience and Nature -
> >>                 and again of course in Art as Experience
> >>                 (notice he is not saying how Art enters
> >>                 into experience but how art is experience
> >>                 - I have come to notice these little
> >>                 things more and more in his writing).
> >>
> >>                 The difficulty we have, at least in the
> >>                 United States because of the dominance of
> >>                 the idea of meta-cognition, is that we too
> >>                 often translate what individuals are
> >>                 bringing in to experience to organize it
> >>                 as a form of meta-cognition.  It is kind
> >>                 of possible to make that interpretation
> >>                 from Democracy and Education, although
> >>                 what I think he is doing more is arguing
> >>                 against misinterpretations of his work as
> >>                 random, child centered activities.  I
> >>                 think he is clearer in Experience and
> >>                 Nature that we bring in who we are at the
> >>                 moment into the activity, and use who we
> >>                 are (I don't want to say identity) as an
> >>                 organizing principle for what we do.  It
> >>                 is perhaps one of the places where Dewey
> >>                 and Vygotsky are close.  Perhaps I can use
> >>                 the same Jackson Pollock example.  The
> >>                 first few times I saw his paintings I was
> >>                 trying to "apprecitate" them because I was
> >>                 told that was the best way to experience
> >>                 them.  Dewey says no vital experience
> >>                 there because my activities become stilted
> >>                 and artificia
> >>                     l.  Sometimes I went through the
> >>                 museum and just looked at pictures, one to
> >>                 the other.  No vital experience there,
> >>                 just random threads. But that time I had
> >>                 the experience with the paintings I was
> >>                 allowing who I was, what had been built up
> >>                 in the trajectory of my life to enter into
> >>                 my experience with the painting, making it
> >>                 a vital experience.  I think Dewey makes
> >>                 the argument in Experience and Nature that
> >>                 it is not just the experience the moment
> >>                 before, but the experiences leading to
> >>                 that experience, the context of my life,
> >>                 of my parent's life, of a long line of
> >>                 historical experiences.
> >>
> >>                 Anyway, my take.
> >>
> >>                 Michael
> >>
> >>                 -
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Beth Ferholt
> >> Assistant Professor
> >> Department of Early Childhood and Art Education
> >> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >>
> >> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu <mailto:bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu>
> >> Phone: (718) 951-5205 <tel:%28718%29%20951-5205>
> >> Fax: (718) 951-4816 <tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
> ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch,
> Ecological Niche, 2008)
>
>


-- 

Both environment and species change in the course of time, and thus
ecological niches are not stable and given forever (Polotova & Storch,
Ecological Niche, 2008)