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[Xmca-l] Re: The zone of proximal development



Henry, Greg,
I also have just started Martin's article. I want to draw your attention to
what Martin calls "a key to focus on"

Martin comments"  "To understand the interaction it is key to focus on the
way the graph paper BEGINS AS figure in the children's activity but ENDS by
being a ground. That is to say, at the start of the session the graph paper
is the OBJECT that is discussed, while by the end it is a TAKEN FOR GRANTED
background or field UPON WHICH lies the object OF joint attention. This is
what I later call an ONTOLOGICAL CONSTRUCTION"

This comment jumped out and grabbed my attention [and my shared focus with
Martin].

What begins as an "object" BE/comes a "FIELD" {UPON WHICH} . In other words
a field "of".

The "of" BE/comes the "key"as the  "upon which" which BE/comes the "field
OF" or BE/comes the "space OF" AS TAKEN-for-granted reality. The object is
TRANS/formed in THIS ontological construction [as such].

Can THIS shift be considered a "prime mover" or a "prime motive"??  The
children with joint activity enter an "ambiguous space" of "objects" that
THROUGH their engagement together "WITH" the "objects" become "the field"
UPON WHICH they operate together within this "taken-for-granted" FIELD that
has become ontological GROUND. Has become a field "OF" within which we
"live"

I "read" Martin's key ontological notion of construction as shifting play
within the "in order to" realm TO the "upon which" realm.

I am returning to finish Martin's commentary and I hope I am possibly
getting clearer on this ambiguous exploration of "subjects" "objects" and
taken-for-granted "fields" which develop within historically specific times
and places.
Larry

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:20 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to Greg! Just started Martin’s article. A good start.
> Henry
>
> > On Jul 6, 2015, at 7:56 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've been reading, with some interest, Martin Packer's 2011 paper
> > "Schooling: Domestication or Ontological Construction" which speaks to
> this
> > issue of an asymmetrical relationship and is somewhat critical of the
> > long-standing CHAT assumptions with regard to this asymmetry. His paper
> can
> > be found under his papers on his academia.edu page:
> > https://uniandes.academia.edu/MartinPacker
> >
> > I should add that I think that Nicaraguan Sign language may hold
> particular
> > potential for seeing just how creative (poietic) children can be on their
> > own - a case in which the end was not present in the beginning, but the
> > whole was present before the parts ("whole" in the very Durkheimian sense
> > of the whole community). That's just me musing.
> >
> > Also, David, I just tried to download the piece you linked to and it says
> > it is missing. Any suggestions?
> >
> > -greg
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 6:42 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Ah, but is it a zone of proximal development--or just a zone of proximal
> >> learning? And for whom?
> >>
> >> Henry asked--some time ago--about the difference between scaffolding and
> >> the zoped, and I argued that scaffolding could be seen as one
> moment--but a
> >> rather extreme and externalized moment--of a zone of proximal learning,
> but
> >> not a zone of proximal development.
> >>
> >> The shape this problem takes in Korea is really a debate over the
> >> respective merits of collaboration and cooperation. The idea is that
> >> collaboration (which conspicuously contains the word "labor") does not
> >> involve the division of labor and does not involve one party making
> >> decisions and the other executing them, while cooperation does; ergo,
> >> collaboration is a kind of cell for the ideal society and cooperation
> is a
> >> cell for capitalism.
> >>
> >> Needless to say, Vygotsky doesn't agree with this at all: almost all of
> his
> >> examples are, on the contrary, examples of highly asymmetrical
> divisions of
> >> labor (mother and child, teacher and child doing homework, experimenter
> and
> >> subject, etc.). It is only through the revolutionary graspture and
> radical
> >> restructuring and interior redecoration of the function of the decision
> >> maker that we get free will. So cooperation and collaboration turn out
> to
> >> be moments of the same process, but that process is, after all, a zone
> of
> >> proximal learning and not necessarily a zone of proximal development.
> >>
> >> I guess I find it useful to distinguish between an "everyday concept" of
> >> the Zoped and a "scientific concept" of the Zoped. This corresponds
> more or
> >> less the distinction that Seth Chaiklin (2003) makes between the
> subjective
> >> (child by child) zoped and the objective (age cohort) zoped, except
> that it
> >> is functional and genetic in its description rather than structural.
> >>
> >> We are presenting a longish paper on this on Saturday at a workshop in
> >> Kangweondo. Here's the English version!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://www.academia.edu/13724420/Between_Lessons_The_Zone_of_Proximal_Development_in_Korean_Schools
> >>
> >> (Warning--it's 33,000 words long, and almost all the examples are from
> >> Korean education!)
> >>
> >> David Kellogg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:21 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Annalisa,
> >>> Thanks for sharing! There may be a similar referendum in Puerto Rico.
> >> What
> >>> a world!
> >>> H
> >>>
> >>>> On Jul 5, 2015, at 3:52 PM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Henry,
> >>>>
> >>>> Clever mom!
> >>>>
> >>>> This will likely be a very memorable event for the both of them.
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, I found this photograph quite moving, because, well... for
> >>> many many reasons!
> >>>>
> >>>> So thanks for letting me share it!
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Annalisa
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
>
>