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[Xmca-l] Re: Ruqaiya Hasan



Fellow XMCA-ers

Now, I might have missed something here in the comments over the past 24
hours, but there weren't very good grammars around a century ago, in fact
there was only the Port Royal Grammar.  I long ago forgave Vygotsky for
focussing on word meaning only, on these grounds. (I am a linguist, that
why I was judgemental to start with.) He could not have had a theory to use.

Whether he would have developed one later we can never know - but knowing
the the sort of man he was, he would definitely have gotten around to it,
and it would have been good.

So, perhaps it would be a good way to honour both  Ruqaiya and LSV to
develop one.

Best

Carol

On 26 June 2015 at 20:45, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I would be in over my head with verbal art, but I am sure you are right,
> David, that the topic is very important to understanding Ruqaiya’s
> contribution to understanding Vygotsky. On the other hand, Ruqaiya seems to
> be making the case that Vygotsky lacks something very important: a theory
> of grammar. That is where her passion and brilliance especially seems to
> come out. And I agree with her about the need! So maybe it’s not just
> something you and I take a great interest in, but apparently a gap that
> needs addressing. It wouldn’t be too far off the mark that this very gap is
> why I got into the CHAT. I have been interested in this since Vera
> John-Steiner, another passionate and brilliant Vygotskian, took me under
> her ample wings 30 years ago. At that time, I wondered if cognitive grammar
> and Vygotsky were commensurable. Forgive my broken record on this, but I
> think the potential is still there. I gather from what you have said about
> Halliday that, from a Vygotskian perspective, there are problems with
> cognitive grammar (e.g. Langacker). Andy (2011) has written about the lack
> of a convincing notion of concept coming from cogntive psychology (e.g.
> Rosch).
>
> If I am wrong about cognitive grammar, a festschrift for Ruqaiya that
> includes the “correction” of Vygotsky will help convince me. I don’t mean
> that such a festschrift would include mention of cognitive grammar and
> cognitive psychology. Just saying.
>
> Henry
>
> P.S. I love David’s description of Ruqaiya’s discourse “style”. It brings
> her alive. Such descriptions will certainly be part of the festschrift,
> whoever contributes.
>
>
> > On Jun 26, 2015, at 1:08 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think I'm qualified to edit a special issue for Ruqaiya, Henry.
> I'm
> > not sure who is qualified, but I think it should be somebody whose main
> > relationship to the reviewers is not a collection of more than ten
> > rejections going back over a decade, varying from the patronizing to the
> > extremely vehement (in one case, my work was actually made the stuff of a
> > graduate seminar by the reviewer, and dutifully reviled by all the
> > participants!). I am sure there will be a Festschrift--but it will be
> > probably be organized by her students and colleagues at Macquarie (e.g.
> > Annabelle Lukin, who is in the lecture).
> >
> > Actually, I no longer have an academic position of any kind. So I think
> the
> > only thing I can usefully do at this point is what I always do--just
> start
> > some kind of discussion and hope that somebody else who can command the
> > respect of reviewers and/or publishers will do something with it.  You
> did
> > ask about Ruqaiya's critique of Vygotsky and that was why I posted the
> link
> > to her exotropic theories article; that is the obvious entry point for
> most
> > people interested in Ruqaiya's relationship to Vygotsky.
> >
> > But I think a good discussion, and also a good Festscrhift, should be
> > inclusive. Many people on the list find grammar less interesting than you
> > and I do. That's why I suggested her work on fairy tales. The work on
> fairy
> > tales, though, is not easy to understand; it's really just an instance
> of a
> > much wider theory of Generalized Text Structure that Ruqaiyah was working
> > out in opposition to the Labov and Waletzky model of "OCER" (orientation,
> > complication, evaluation, and resolution) which essentially reduces all
> > narratives to four panel cartoons. That was why I suggested Dr. Lukin's
> > lecture, which really does tell you something about how to read Ruqaiyah.
> >
> > Ruqaiyah was a wonderful, combative, and at the same time very charming
> > interlocutor; her eyes would light up like twin bonfires while you were
> > speaking, and you knew that as soon as you paused for breath you were
> going
> > to get a blast that was going to open your eyes but maybe singe your
> > eyebrows a little too. But Ruqaiyah was a somewhat awkward public
> speaker:
> > she interrupted herself a lot and like many people who do SFL she was
> > always unsure where to start, where to stop, and how much of the whole
> was
> > necessary before the various parts she wanted to talk about would make
> > sense. Dr. Lukin doesn't have that problem: she takes one of Ruqaiyah's
> > best articles, starts at the start, goes on until she comes to the end,
> and
> > then...
> >
> > Well, that was the other thing about Ruqaiyah. She never really stopped;
> I
> > think she just didn't know how, or maybe just didn't bother to practice.
> >
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:59 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> David,
> >> I want to make sure I understand. The first link is for an article
> >> connecting Vygotsky, Halliday and Bernstein  that goes straight to
> >> Ruqaiya’s “correction” of Vygotsky, right? The second link seems to be
> an
> >> abstract for the text of the third link article, right? I don’t see yet
> the
> >> connection between the article and the lecture, so I’m not sure I can
> help
> >> there. Let’s just say I tackle the article. Can you tell me how my
> response
> >> might help you and Phil get started on the commemorative festschrift?
> >> Henry
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:54 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is just to say that I am happy to participate in a commemorative
> >>> Festschrift for Ruqaiya--or maybe a commemorative special issue, along
> >> the
> >>> lines of what was done for Leigh Star--in any way I can.
> >>>
> >>> One way to start would be for Henry and for the list to read and
> >>> discuss--and respond to--THIS:
> >>>
> >>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/JuneJuly05/HasanVygHallBernst.pdf
> >>>
> >>> Something else to think about: Ruqaiya came to Vygotsky more or less
> the
> >>> same way Vygotsky did, through the medium of verbal art. So another
> thing
> >>> to consider is Ruqaiya's work on the structure of fairy tales; by far
> the
> >>> best thing done thereupon since Vygotsky's work on fables.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/index.php/books/article/viewArticle/BOOK-29-752-1
> >>>
> >>> If you can't afford or have trouble reading the original, there's a
> good
> >>> lecture by Annabelle Lukin on Ruqaiya's theory of generalized text
> >>> structure:
> >>>
> >>> https://vimeo.com/76491567
> >>>
> >>> David Kellogg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 1:54 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Henry
> >>>>
> >>>> The issue is -- who wishes to take responsibility for such a
> production.
> >>>> Phil and David have spoken up. Hard to say.
> >>>>
> >>>> The thing about self organizing systems is that the self is not
> located
> >> in
> >>>> one particular part
> >>>> of them. THEY have to self organize.
> >>>>
> >>>> You know the old saying, where there is a will there is a way. Very
> >>>> optimistic in my view, but better than the total absence of will as a
> >>>> starting point.
> >>>>
> >>>> Time will tell.
> >>>> betcha
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 8:55 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am saddened not only by Ruqaiya’s passing by also by how little I
> >> knew
> >>>>> about Ruqaiya’s work. I hope to correct that now by reading more. Not
> >>>> least
> >>>>> because of what David points out that she adds to Vygotsky: Grammar!
> >>>> There
> >>>>> may be a thousand things that Ruqaiya has contributed to systemic
> >>>>> functional linguistics, but connecting it so explicitly to Vygotsky,
> >>>> THAT I
> >>>>> would like to read more and hear more about. If there is, as Mike
> >>>> suggests,
> >>>>> an MCA honoring of her work, I would very much like to see that
> >>>> connection
> >>>>> “foregrounded” (a term straight out of the Wikipedia article on
> >> Ruqaiya).
> >>>>> Henry
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jun 25, 2015, at 4:29 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that Ruqaiya was the only person I ever met who set out to
> >>>>>> "correct" Vygotsky and actually succeeded: her insight was that
> >>>>> Vygotsky's
> >>>>>> theory, without a theory of grammar, was inevitably going to focus
> too
> >>>>>> narrowly on lexical meanings and their historical derivations. As
> >>>>> Vygotsky
> >>>>>> himself pointed out, it's very hard to tell when children's word
> >>>> meanings
> >>>>>> develop. But Ruqaiya pointed out that it's very easy to tell when
> >> their
> >>>>>> wordings do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I was hoping to see her at the next ISFC in Germany next month--I'll
> >>>> miss
> >>>>>> her.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> David Kellogg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Phil Chappell <
> philchappell@mac.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Many on this list will know of Ruqaiya Hasan's work and may even
> have
> >>>>>>> joined in an XMCA seminar we had back in the mid noughties. She
> was a
> >>>>> great
> >>>>>>> advocate of intersections between Vygotsky, Halliday, Bernstein and
> >>>>> Marx.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sad to pass this message on.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phil Chappell
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dear SFL Friends
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> With great sadness I have to tell you that Ruqaiya passed away
> >>>> suddenly
> >>>>>>> yesterday afternoon.  She suffered heart failure, brought on by the
> >>>>> stress
> >>>>>>> of the cancer and the infection, which had so weakened her body.
> >>>>>>> Fortunately Michael was with her at that moment, and for some time
> >>>>>>> beforehand.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have just spoken with Michael, and want to reassure you that he
> is
> >>>>> doing
> >>>>>>> well in these circumstances - as courageous and determined as you
> >> know
> >>>>> he
> >>>>>>> would be.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There will be a small funeral service in Sydney next week.  The
> time
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> date are still being arranged, and details will be posted when they
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>> available.  There will also be a much larger scholarly event to
> >>>>> celebrate
> >>>>>>> Ruqaiya's life and work, and to keep it moving forward, later in
> the
> >>>>> year
> >>>>>>> at Macquarie University.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A wonderful life, an immense scholarly contribution, an
> extraordinary
> >>>>>>> friend to so many people around the world.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>> Geoff Williams
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> All there is to thinking is seeing something noticeable which makes
> >>>> you see something you weren't noticing which makes you see something
> >>>> that isn't even visible. N. McLean, *A River Runs Through it*
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>


-- 
Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
Developmental psycholinguist
Academic, Researcher,  and Editor
Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa