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[Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy
Martin, you sent us a very dense paragraph and I wanted to try and parse
just two sentences of it to see if I'm understanding you.
"It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary use of
artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules and
roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of
institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop
an understanding of the social world in which they live."
So what you are saying here is that the sequence of development that you
are proposing is:
1. customary use of artifacts
2. taken for granted social conventions
3. institutional rules and roles
4. deontological aspects of living in complex systems of institutions
Is that right?
I wonder if you might be willing to make some guesses as to ages of these?
Also, as you know, John Lucy has been working on this issue as it relates
to language development and I see some interesting points of alignment
here. (Benjamin Smith's work on marble playing Aymara boys demonstrates the
development of #2 among 6-8 year old boys in Peru).
Anyway, I find this fascinating and would love to hear more (is there more
about this in your Tomasello review piece?).
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 6:42 AM, Martin John Packer <firstname.lastname@example.org
> In my view this normative dimension has to be central to any account of
> human ontogenesis. I think Tomasello, and collaborators such as Hannes
> Rakoczy, are on the right track here, but in my view they don't draw some
> necessary distinctions. Children don't simply deal with, and come to
> understand, different kinds of norms, any more than they do different kinds
> of roles. It seems to me that we need to distinguish among the customary
> use of artifacts, taken for granted social conventions, institutional rules
> and roles, and the deontological aspect of living in complex systems of
> institutions. This is the sequence, in my view, in which children develop
> an understanding of the social world in which they live.
> On Mar 21, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Helen Harper <email@example.com>
> > I’m intrigued by Michael Tomasello’s discussion here about children
> taking on normative behaviours, and the idea that they come to represent a
> group or a culture through those behaviours.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtf2btmfPgw <
> > I wonder if this is consistent with your view Andy?
> > Helen
> >> On 22 Mar 2015, at 10:08 am, Andy Blunden <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> >> p. 365, "The Child's Psyche":
> >> "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to
> buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests a
> schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks for a toy
> to be bought. These requests have a different sense not only for its
> parents but above all for the child itself."
> >> I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is little
> to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the normative series
> of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as well as the modern life
> of a child.
> >> Andy
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *Andy Blunden*
> >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >> Peg Griffin wrote:
> >>> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I
> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's
> "Problems in the Development of Mind:" A child not yet going to school and
> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy pencils
> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need for the
> older one. I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not just in
> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural institutions impact
> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and then
> there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual.
> >>> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this
> might be in the Leontiev book. Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far away
> from the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ] Peg
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602