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[Xmca-l] Re: Why Computers Make So Little Difference



That is a fair and interesting distinction, Huw. My only point is that culturally/historically the two arrive together along with large number of people living together.
Think Jane Jacobs vs your average city planning bureaucrat!

Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/


Huw Lloyd wrote:
Unfortunately that seems to tie in with my view that civilisation is the open regard for others and appreciation for the power of objective systems in contradistinction to bureaucratic power. I shall reflect on that.


On 12 March 2015 at 00:32, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    So true, Huw!
    I think it deserves some reflection among CHAT theorists who take
    an interest in cultural development that when a non-literate
    community comes into contact with "civilisation" they actually
    meet two different things for the first time.
    (1) They come into contact with *civilisation*, a.k.a.
    institutions which have developed culture with the aid of the
    written word, and the interaction between the written word and
    technique, and the immensely productive spiral of development
    which has given us Mozart, Beethoven, Darwin, Einstein, and Harpo
    Marx. That is dialectical logic.
    (2) They come into contact with *bureaucracy*, which in its
    mission to manage the collective lives of very large numbers of
    people, has utilised the written word to break down the true
    concepts created by the culture into neat little pigeon holes for
    filing away, and is dedicated to inculcating the minds of our
    children into thinking in terms of taxonomy, rather than true
    concepts.  That is formal logic.

    I think there is a lot of confusion between civilisation and
    bureaucracy, and consequently between true concepts (which
    nonliterate people have, albeit within a limited scope of
    experience) and pseudoconcepts (which are the great love of
    bureaucracy, the commercial world and positivist science.)

    Andy
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *Andy Blunden*
    http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
    <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>


    Huw Lloyd wrote:

        ...

        The impression that I have of our collectively western society
        is that it
is utterly swamped in formal logic and its mode of operation. Our schools
        and universities are probably the worst of all in this regard,
        such that
        even raising the notion of schooling based upon creative
        understanding
        seems to bewilder people (and small wonder that innovators in
        logic were
        also technical innovators, because it is necessary to create
        and design in
        order to learn how to think).