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[Xmca-l] Re: Thought and language as oscillating and pulsing [or not]



Thank you for the video and for the reference to Vera's use of the term
"enlacement" to describe the relation of phylogeny and cultural history,
Henry. I have been accustomed to thinking in terms of "entanglement." What
I like about enlacement is the that it provides an aesthetic quality to the
their mutual engagement, and culture is all about aesthetics.

Separately on the mobious bach
mike

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:

> Larry,
> I guess it was you who got the Mobius strip into this thread a few days
> ago, which I geriatically and vaguely reacalled after my wife showed me
> earlier today the attached from Vimeo. Until now, I have never really
> understood where Bach’s Crab Cannon got its name. I love how the video
> makes that clear. Some years back a musician friend of mine told me that he
> saw his guitar fretboard like a mobius stip, no top or bottom, an Eternal
> Golden Thread, as Hofstadter would have it. Many years ago I remember Vera
> John Steiner's writing and talking about the INTERLACEMENT of biological
> and cultural factors in human development. How beautiful this cluster of
> metaphors. How generative. How creative. It just occurred to me that the
> efforts on another thread to create an architecture for a data base seem to
> be working for a mobius kind of seamlessness. Don’t bother stop me. It will
> all pass by tomorrow night.
> Henry
>
> http://vimeo.com/69715960 <http://vimeo.com/69715960>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have imaginally been walking with Zinchenko who is telling me about his
> > chats with Schpet and Vygotsky.
> > Zinchenko is engaged in rehabilitating the centrality of the meaning
> > of "meaning" to processes of phenomenological historical understanding,
> and
> > interpretation.  His conversation is in the form  of a rejoinder [or
> > joining back] with Vygotsky and Schpet with who he wants to bring out
> their
> > mutually shared thesis on the relation of thought and word.
> > Zinchenko uses metaphors to poetically embody his attempt to have
> > "meanings" more modest place with Vygotsky take on a more prominent and
> > central quality.
> >
> > Zinchenko wrote:
> > "A good image for the mutual relationships of meaning and sense is a
> Mobius
> > strip.  In the process of understanding or thinking, we encounter
> > oppositely encountered *acts of making sense of meanings and sense giving
> > meaningful signs to senses *[authors emphasis], which are transformed
> into
> > each other. In Russian, 'meaning' ['znachenie'] and 'sign' ['znak'] have
> a
> > common root and, hence, the untranslated italicized phrase sounds like a
> > Russian pun. On the outer side of the strip may be meaning, which is
> > transformed into sense as a result of the act of making sense, and this
> > *becomes* the internal side of the *same* strip. Assigning a meaningful
> > sign to sense  makes an *analogous *transformation. Anyway, it was
> highly
> > productive for Vygotsky to change the *focus* from *'meaning*' to
> sense.  *Such
> > a change *brings his views closer to those of Shpet. [page 228]
> >
> > I will pause here but want to point out how the metaphor of the Mobius
> > strip has a similar quality to the hermeneutical movement of "fusions of
> > horizons"
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:51 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you, Martin!
> >> Henry
> >>
> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 1:49 PM, Martin John Packer <
> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is the information I have, Henry.
> >>>
> >>> Freiberger-Sheikholeslami, E. (1984). Gustav G. Shpet: Hermeneutical
> >> logic and philosophical semiotics. In J. Deely (Ed.), Semiotics 1984
> (pp.
> >> 381-391). Bloomington: Semiotic Society of America.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 2:37 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Martin,
> >>>> Thank you very muchfor the article on Sheet. I think the readings and
> >> dialog generated will help me understand much better Vygotsky and his
> >> context by getting a better grip on the long view, through the eyes of
> >> hermeneutics. Do you know when the Freiberger-Sheeikholes article was
> >> written?
> >>>> Henry
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Martin John Packer <
> >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am sure that there are differences between LSV and Shpet, as Larry
> >> points out. But there are also striking similarities. Here is a little
> >> background:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <Freiberger-Sheikholeslami 1985 Gustav G. Shpet He.pdf>
> >>>>> On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Martin will be sending us an article on Shpet.
> >>>>>> I therefore did some background exploration and discovered that
> Shpet
> >> and
> >>>>>> Vygotsky differed on the notion of "oscillation".
> >>>>>> Vygotsky believed thought and language oscillated while Shpet
> >> disagreed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Zinchenko clarifies Vygotsky's understanding in this paragraph
> >>>>>> that Zinchenko wrote in his chapter "Thought and Word, the
> Approaches
> >> of L.
> >>>>>> S. Vygotsky and G. G. Shpet": It uses the metaphor of rain [which I
> >>>>>> associated with the other thread on rain]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Thought and word are no less polyphonic than mind.  Yet, there is a
> >>>>>> long way to go to arrive at this conclusion.  And it is hard to
> >>>>>> overestimate the input of Shpet and Vygotsky, along with Aleksandr
> >> Potebnya.
> >>>>>> Out of all the polyphony of mind and thought, out of all the various
> >>>>>> possibilities of origins, Shpet and Vygotsky   gave their preference
> >> to the
> >>>>>> word, although they understood it differently.  Let us start from
> >>>>>> Vygotsky's metaphorical description: *What is simultaneous in
> thought
> >> is
> >>>>>> successive in language.*  It would be possible to compare a thought
> >> with a
> >>>>>> cloud that showers a rain of words.  This is why the transition from
> >>>>>> thought to language is a very complicated process of *dismemberment*
> >> of a
> >>>>>> thought and its recreation in a word.  On the next page, Vygotsky
> >> wrote,
> >>>>>> 'continuing this picturesque comparison, we should liken the
> >> motivation of
> >>>>>> thought to the wind that sets the clouds in motion.'  If something
> >> can *pour
> >>>>>> itself, *it means that it already exists.  Therefore we can
> >> understand the
> >>>>>> given metaphor as saying that thought, already existing is
> *expressed
> >> *in a
> >>>>>> word"  [emphasis in the original]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This quote draws attention to Vygotsky perceiving *oscillation
> >> *behind the
> >>>>>> movement of thought and language. Shpet did not see thought and
> >> language as
> >>>>>> oscillating.  Zinchenko's goal in his article is not to place the
> >>>>>> approaches of Shpet and Vygotsky in opposition but to present them
> as
> >>>>>> mutually complimentary approaches.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I hope to learn from others on the complexity of the notions of
> >>>>>> oscillating movement of thought and language situated within words.
> >>>>>> Polyphonic notions
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>


-- 
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object
that creates history. Ernst Boesch.