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[Xmca-l] Re: Shpet & principium cognescenti

So people find the three-ness interesting?  The thing I thought might be
interesting was the transitions from essential to external to internal.

I can't say I read anything about dualism into the article.  The
oscillation (which didn't strike me as being a big deal) was between the
variously given forms of phenomena (if I recall correctly).  Zinchenko's
referencing functional organs and his intimate work with ergonomics etc
permit him an alternative form of investigation, that doesn't rely upon a
dialectic description (but that is compatible with it).


On 28 January 2015 at 02:47, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Apparently these principium triad comes from the Theologian Hermann
> Bavinck: all knowledge begins with God, and via the Scriptures, man can
> make it his own knowledge.
> But in line with Mike's observation, I well remember the perezhivanie I
> had when a friend pointed out the parallels between the Marxist conception
> of primitive communism - civilization - socialist society, and not just the
> Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, but a half a dozen narratives or our own
> time. Paralleled by the perezhivanie I had when I read that for Spinoza,
> "God" meant Nature (including humanity).
> Nonetheless, despite the humbling symmetry between the great world
> theories, we all signal our allegiance to this one or that one by the names
> we give to the One (God, Nature, matter, Allah, Spirit, ...) and the Triad
> and in the case cited, Vygotsky is using a famous Hegelian version of the
> triad, "in itself, for others, for itself":
>    "The education and instruction of a child aim at making him actually
>    and for himself what he is at first only potentially and therefore
>    for others, viz., for his grown up friends. The Reason, which at
>    first exists in the child only as an inner possibility, is
>    actualised through education: and conversely, the child by these
>    means becomes conscious that the goodness, religion, and science
>    which he had at first looked upon as an outward authority, are his
>    own nature."
> Although the symmetry between the systems of thought we unkowingly
> affiliate to is surprising, we all declare our affiliation by the name we
> give to the One or the Triad, as the case may be. In the article Larry
> cites, however, Zinchenko just seems to be chiding Vygotsky repeatedly for
> failing to adhere to analytical Dualism.
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> mike cole wrote:
>> I can try an answer, Huw. These idea of a triadic system, spirals of
>> development, etc
>> are core metaphors for expressing some sort of thirdness about human life.
>> Father/son and holy ghost, id/ego/superego, subject/object/medium etc. It
>> is a part of the Judeo-Christian system and aligns with non-religiously
>> affiliated intuitions that dualism does not cut it as a mode of thought.
>> The trouble is, there are only two kinds of people in the world....
>> !
>> mike
>> On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 2:14 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> There seems to be a clear parallel between Vygotsky's use of the
>>> formulation "in itself, for others, for itself" and Shpet's referencing
>>> theological principium cognescenti which according to my brief browsing
>>> are
>>> three principles:
>>> principium essendi, principium cognoscendi externum, principium
>>> cognoscendi
>>> internum.
>>> Is anyone here familiar with the etymology of these principles and their
>>> bearing on Vygotsky's work?  Is there more than a superficial
>>> resemblance?
>>> Huw