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[Xmca-l] Re: Imagination (seeing and believing)



Good point Greg - there is a reference in there to a 1957 study by A Joyce martin but that was into LSD! I have a feeling that Paul may have been referring to the studies reported here http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/04/magic-mushrooms-brain_n_6100912.html but I will check.

All the best,

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
Sent: 19 December 2014 05:18
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination (seeing and believing)

Rod,
The study I found attached to your email was not by a "Martin" (as suggested by Paul in the email). Still more disappointingly there no mention of magic mushrooms in the piece.
Any chance you have the article by "Martin" and that can tell us something about people taking magic mushrooms in an fMRI machine?
-greg


On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:36 PM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Rod,
> Appropriate or not (though I think it is) your post has me asking why
> Martin (our Martin?)  thinks that the use of that substance diminished
> the inference making. This will drive Mike crazy, but would a thread
> on imagination benefit from a discussion of what has been with the
> species from time immemorial: mind altering substances? We’re talking
> affordances here, culture, history, activity. Another thread?
> Henry
>
> > On Dec 18, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure how appropriate it is to post this here as it is going
> back to an earlier theme in the discussion - the relationship between
> perception and imagination. I asked a friend who is on a masters
> psychology programme and she asked one of her tutors at Bristol
> University (Paul Howard-Jones
> http://www.bristol.ac.uk/education/people/person/93406/index.html ).
> >
> > I think his summary of the attached paper may be of interest to some
> > -
> and the paper is way outside the xmca remit but I have attached in in
> case anyone is interested enough to want to read more.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Rod
> >
> > This was what I asked:
> >
> > Are you aware of any articles which enumerate the ratio between
> > sensory
> information (e.g. stimuli from the retinae) and visual memory in the
> process of seeing? I saw a claim somewhere that only about 10% of what
> we ‘see’ is from retinal information, with the rest made up by our
> interpretation of this information using what we have seen before but
> I can’t track down any evidence for this so am not confident about it!
> What I am particularly interested in is what happens when the bodily
> actions of thinking and perceiving are reduced to ‘things’ –
> ‘thoughts’ and ‘perceptions’ or ’images’. It seems important to me
> that the way we ACT on things is part of what we know about them or,
> more generally, that we are aware of our environment in terms of our
> experiences of interacting with it rather than in terms of lists of
> extracted ‘properties’ of phenomena
> >
> > And this is Paul's reply:
> >
> > Attached is a highly theoretical paper by a guy (Martin) who was
> privileged to borrow my wooden fMRI simulator for participants to take
> magic mushrooms in- fascinating study! It might be relevant to this query.
> > I would summarise it as follows:
> > The brain is thought to comprise hierarchical levels, with input
> arriving at the lowest levels (light, sound, touch, etc) and a
> representation of the world generated at the top that can direct our
> actions (e.g., rain is falling, so grab a coat). To achieve this, each
> level draws on past history to draw some basic conclusions and these
> inferences get passed to the level above. So, in the visual system,
> lower levels process activations of retinal neurons into inferred features (e.g.
> rain drops). A little further up in the same system, higher levels
> process the behaviour of features into inferred patterns of movement
> (e.g....are falling). When a layer forms an inference, it can use it
> to suppress the information coming from below that gave rise to it.
> This is good house-keeping, and reduces the amount of information the
> brain has to process. After all, once a pattern of incoming
> information is recognised and can be reduced to an inference, it can
> be filed under “business as usual” and that stream of information can
> be ignored - the inference is all we need to know. Information that
> can’t be turned into inferences – stuff that doesn’t fit previous
> history – deserves more special attention and, rather than getting
> suppressed, is passed up the levels for a different
> reason: it can be used to readjust expectations and teach the brain
> new tricks (i.e. how to make new inferences), so providing a mechanism
> for the brain to learn.
> >
> >
> > But this essentially means very little of the original perceptual
> information ever reaches consciousness (unless you take magic
> mushrooms (not that i am recommending) which Martin thinks diminishes
> the efficiency of the inference-making.
> >
> >
> > Merry Christmas everyone!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > Sent: 18 December 2014 18:44
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination
> >
> > Dear Colleagues.  Might it be appropriate to start another thread on
> metaphor?
> >
> > My basic starting point is the idea that basic perceptual processes
> ineluctably require imagination...... measured in milliseconds.
> Metaphor and linguistic mediation is for sure an essential topic here.
> I want to hold on to the Suvorov metaphor of imagination as lifting
> off from the world and returning to it again. (If the Suvorov
> reference is not familiar I will post relevant paper).
> >
> > A thought:  Might it be possible to parse Francine's last message
> > into
> subtopics while not discouraging cross subtopic conversations?
> >
> > Trying to hold all the threads in my hand.
> > Slow in So Cal.
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 9:58 AM, HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m with Andy on prepositions as metaphors. They are clearly
> >> embodied, proprioceptive, symbolic, meaningful. A standard intro to
> >> linguistics (For example, Yule, The Study of Language) semantics is
> >> focused on
> “lexicon”:
> >> nouns, verbs, adjectives, absolutely no mention of prepositions,
> >> being part of grammar, as it is traditionally construed. Langacker
> >> and Halliday see no clear demarcation between lexicon and grammar,
> >> hence, lexico-grammar. (Lo and behold, my spell check wanted me to
> >> write lexicon-grammar, adding the “n”. The traditions holds! Keep
> >> them
> >> separate!) Word coinings are great data for imagination and
> >> creativity. Did Vygotsky do much of that? In translation from
> >> Russian
> is word coining ever practiced?
> >> Henry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Dec 18, 2014, at 2:54 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> the kind of metaphor which I find most interesting is the
> >>> metaphorical
> >> use of prepositions like:
> >>> - "there is some value IN your argument"
> >>> - "I'd like to go OVER that again"
> >>> - "I'd don't see what is BEHIND that line of thinking"
> >>> - "Let's go THROUGH that again"
> >>>
> >>> and so on.
> >>> Andy
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>> ----
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> larry smolucha wrote:
> >>>> Message from Francine Smolucha:
> >>>>
> >>>> Forgive me for replying to myself -
> >>>>
> >>>> In regard to combinatory imagination and the synergistic
> possibilities:
> >>>>
> >>>> In the Genetic Roots of Thought and Speech (1929) published in
> >>>> Thought and Speech (1934) [or Thought and Language as translated
> >>>> into English
> >> 1962]
> >>>> Vygotsky discussed how word meaning is more than the 'additive'
> >>>> value
> >> of the
> >>>> two components (the sensory-motor thought and the speech
> vocalization).
> >>>> He used the analogy of H2O in which two chemical elements that
> >>>> are
> >> flammable
> >>>> gases combine to produce water, which is neither flammable nor a gas.
> >>>>
> >>>> [Just a note for Newcomers - in the early 20th century European
> >> Developmental
> >>>> Psychologists used the word 'genetic' to mean 'developmental'
> >>>> hence the Developmental Roots of Thought and Speech or in the
> >>>> case of Piaget's
> >> Genetic
> >>>> Epistemology read as Developmental Epistemology.
> >>>>
> >>>> And to those XMCARs who mentioned earlier synthesis and synthesis
> >>>> based
> >> on
> >>>> metaphoric thinking - definitely - we even see this in Vygotsky's
> >> example of H2O.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> >>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:18:07 -0600
> >>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Message from Francine Smolucha:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Combinatory or recombinative imagination could be synergistic
> >>>>> and produce something new that is more than the sum of the parts.
> >>>>> It does not have to mean that "imagination is nothing more than
> >>>>> the recombining of concrete experiences, nothing really new can
> >>>>> ever be
> >> imagined"
> >>>>> (David Kellogg's most recent email.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A couple things to consider:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1) Sensory perception involves some element of imagination as
> >>>>> the
> >> brain has
> >>>>> to organize incoming data into a pattern (even at the simplest
> >>>>> level
> >> of the Gestalt
> >>>>> Law of Closure or Figure/Ground Images).
> >>>>> (2) Memories themselves are reconstructed and not just photographic.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (3) The goal of reproductive imagination (memory) is to try to
> >> accurately reproduce
> >>>>> the sensory-motor experience of some external event. Whereas,
> >>>>> the goal
> >> of combinatory
> >>>>> imagination is to create something new out of memories, dreams,
> >> musings, and even
> >>>>> sensory motor activity involving the actual manipulation of
> >>>>> objects
> >> and symbols.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (4) I think it would be useful to think of the different ways
> >>>>> that
> >> things and concepts can be
> >>>>> combines. For example, I could just combine salt and sugar and flour.
> >>>>>                                          I can add water and it
> >> dissolves a bit
> >>>>>                                          But adding heat changes
> >>>>> the
> >> combination into a pancake.
> >>>>>                       [Is this synergistic?]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>             Sorry I have to go now - I am thinking of more
> >>>>> examples
> >> to put the discussion
> >>>>>             in the metaphysical realm.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:05:49 +0900
> >>>>>> From: dkellogg60@gmail.com
> >>>>>> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Imagination
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Let me--while keeping within the two screen limit--make the
> >>>>>> case for Vygotsky's obsession with discrediting associationism.
> >>>>>> I think it's
> >> not
> >>>>>> just about mediation; as Michael points out, there are
> >> associationists who
> >>>>>> are willing to accept that a kind of intermediary
> >>>>>> associationism
> >> exists and
> >>>>>> some mediationists who are willing to accept that as mediation.
> >> Vygotsky
> >>>>>> has far more in mind. How do we, without invoking religion,
> >>>>>> explain
> >> the
> >>>>>> uniqueness of our species?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Is it just the natural egocentrism that every species feels for
> >>>>>> its
> >> own
> >>>>>> kind? From an associationist point of view, and from a
> >>>>>> Piagetian perspective--and even from a strict Darwinian
> >>>>>> one--true maturity as a species comes with acknowledging that
> >>>>>> there is nothing more to it than
> >>>>>> that: we are simply a singularly maladaptive variety of
> >>>>>> primate, and
> >> our
> >>>>>> solemn temples and clouded towers are but stones piled upon
> >>>>>> rocks in
> >> order
> >>>>>> to hide this. The value of our cultures have to be judged the
> >>>>>> same
> >> way as
> >>>>>> any other adaptation: in terms of survival value.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Making the case for the higher psychological functions and for
> >> language is
> >>>>>> not simply a matter of making a NON-religious case human
> >> exceptionalism.
> >>>>>> It's also, in a strange way, a way of making the case for the
> >> vanguard role
> >>>>>> of the lower classes in human progress. For other species,
> >>>>>> prolonging childhood is giving hostages to fortune,and looking
> >>>>>> after the sick
> >> and the
> >>>>>> elderly is tantamount to suicide. But because artificial organs
> >> (tools) and
> >>>>>> even artificial intelligences (signs) are so important for our
> >> species, it
> >>>>>> is in the societies and the sectors of society where these
> >> "circuitous,
> >>>>>> compensatory means of development" are most advanced that lead
> >>>>>> our development as a species. The wretched of the earth always
> >>>>>> been short
> >> on
> >>>>>> rocks and stones to pile up and on the wherewithal for material
> >> culture
> >>>>>> generally. But language and ideology is quite another matter:
> >>>>>> verily,
> >> here
> >>>>>> the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think the idea of imagination is a distal form of attention
> >>>>>> is
> >> simply the
> >>>>>> logical result of Ribot's model of imagination: he says there
> >>>>>> are
> >> only two
> >>>>>> kinds of imagination: reproductive, and recombinative. So
> >>>>>> imagination
> >> is
> >>>>>> nothing more than the recombination of concrete experiences,
> >>>>>> and
> >> nothing
> >>>>>> really new can ever be imagined. But as Vygotsky says, when you
> >>>>>> hear
> >> the
> >>>>>> name of a place, you don't have to have actually been there to
> >>>>>> be
> >> able to
> >>>>>> imagine it. So there must be some artificial memory at work in
> >>>>>> word
> >> meaning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You probably know the hoary old tale about Archimedes, who was
> >>>>>> given a crown of gold and who discovered that the gold had been
> >>>>>> mixed with
> >> silver
> >>>>>> by measuring the displacement of an equivalent quantity of gold.
> >> Well, we
> >>>>>> now know that this method doesn't actually work: it's not
> >>>>>> possible to measure the differences in water displacement that
> >>>>>> precisely. The
> >> method
> >>>>>> that Archimedes actually used was much closer to the "principal
> >>>>>> of buoyancy" which Vygotsky always talks about.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And how do we know this? Because of the Archimedes palimpsest,
> >>>>>> a
> >> velum on
> >>>>>> which seven texts were written at right angles to each other.
> >>>>>> Because parchment was so expensive, the velum was scraped and
> >>>>>> written over
> >> every
> >>>>>> century or so, but because the skin it was made of was soft,
> >>>>>> the
> >> pressure
> >>>>>> of the writing preserved the older texts below the new ones
> >>>>>> when the
> >> old
> >>>>>> text was scraped off. And one of the lower texts is the only
> >>>>>> known
> >> Greek
> >>>>>> copy of Archimedes' "On Floating Bodies".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Neither the relationship of these texts to meaning nor their
> >> relationship
> >>>>>> to each other is a matter of association (and in fact they are
> >> related to
> >>>>>> each other by a kind of failed dissociation). But it's quite
> >>>>>> similar
> >> to the
> >>>>>> way that word meanings are reused and develop anew.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (Did I do it? Is this two screens?)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> David Kellogg
> >>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 16 December 2014 at 14:24, HENRY SHONERD
> >>>>>> <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I meant to ask: What does it mean that Ribot, as an
> >>>>>>> associationist,
> >> “sees
> >>>>>>> imagination as a rather distal form of attention”?
> >>>>>>> Henry
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2014, at 5:19 PM, David Kellogg
> >>>>>>>> <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On the one hand, Ribot is really responsible for the division
> >> between
> >>>>>>>> higher and lower psychological functions. On the other,
> >>>>>>>> because
> >> Ribot is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> associationist, he sees imagination as a rather distal form
> >>>>>>>> of
> >> attention.
> >>>>>>>> And, as Mike says, he does associate it with the transition
> >>>>>>>> from
> >> forest
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> farm, so in that sense he is responsible for the division
> >>>>>>>> between
> >> the two
> >>>>>>>> great periods of semio-history: the literal and
> >>>>>>>> commonsensical
> >> world of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> forest where attention has to be harnessed to fairly prosaic
> >>>>>>>> uses
> >> in life
> >>>>>>>> and death struggles for existence, and the much more "imaginative"
> >> (that
> >>>>>>>> is, image based) forms of attention we find in the world of
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> farm,where
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> written accounts (e.g. calendars) are kept, where long winter
> >> months are
> >>>>>>>> wiled away with fables, and we are much more likely to
> >>>>>>>> encounter
> >> talking
> >>>>>>>> animals (but much more rarely talking plants!). Here
> >>>>>>>> attention has
> >> to be
> >>>>>>>> more voluntary.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Vygotsky rejects all this, of course. I think he has a very
> >>>>>>>> clear understanding of the kind of Rousseauvian romanticism
> >>>>>>>> that underpins
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ribot
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> here, but above all he rejects associationism. Vygotsky
> >>>>>>>> points out
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> LOGICAL flaw in Ribot's argument: if these productive
> >>>>>>>> practices
> >> really
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> the true source of volitional attention and thus of
> >>>>>>>> imagination,
> >> there
> >>>>>>>> isn't any reason to see a qualitative difference between
> >>>>>>>> human and
> >> animal
> >>>>>>>> imagination, because of course animals are perfectly capable
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> volitional
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> attention (and in some ways are better at it than humans).
> >>>>>>>> Without a
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> theory
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of the difference language makes, there isn't any basis for
> >>>>>>>> Ribot's distinction between higher and lower psychological
> functions at all.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> David Kellogg
> >>>>>>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 16 December 2014 at 01:02, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Lots of interesting suggestions of new kinds of imagination,
> >> thanks to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> all
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> for the food for thought.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ribot, not Robot, Henry. He was apparently very influential
> >>>>>>>>> around
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> time
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> emprical psychology got going in the late 19th century. I
> >>>>>>>>> had seen
> >> work
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> memory before, but not imagination.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Robert-  Does generative = productive and reflective equal
> >> reproductive?
> >>>>>>>>> Overall I am pondering how to link up empirical studies of
> >> development
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> imagination to these various categories --- The cost of
> >>>>>>>>> being a
> >> relative
> >>>>>>>>> newcomer to the topic.
> >>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 10:19 PM, HENRY SHONERD <
> >> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Forgive me coming late to this! Robot is now on my bucket list.
> >> This
> >>>>>>>>>> business of movement recycles our cross-modal musings from
> >>>>>>>>>> some
> >> weeks
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> our metaphorizing. (I just got an auto spell correct that
> >> segmented the
> >>>>>>>>>> last two words of the previous sentence as “met aphorizing”.
> >>>>>>>>>> Puns, according to my Wikipedia is a kind of metaphor. :)
> >>>>>>>>>> Henry
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 14, 2014, at 10:57 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Andy- It was the Russians who pointed me toward Kant and
> >>>>>>>>>>> they are
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> doing
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> contemporary work in which they claim Vygotsky and his
> >>>>>>>>>>> followers
> >> as an
> >>>>>>>>>>> inspiration. Some think that LSV was influenced by Hegel,
> >>>>>>>>>>> so its
> >> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> course
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> interesting to see those additional categories emerge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 19th Century psychological vocabulary, especially in
> >>>>>>>>>>> translation,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> seems
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> awfully slippery territory to me. The word, "recollection"
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> passage,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> for example, is not a currently used term in counter
> >>>>>>>>>>> distinction
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> "memory."
> >>>>>>>>>>> Normal problems. There are serious problems in
> >>>>>>>>>>> contemporary
> >> discourse
> >>>>>>>>>>> across languages as our explorations with out Russian
> >>>>>>>>>>> colleagues
> >> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> illustrated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That said, I feel as if I am learning something from
> >>>>>>>>>>> theorists
> >> who
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> influenced Vygotsky and early psychology -- when it was
> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> include culture in it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ribot has a book called "Creative Imagination" which,
> >> interestingly
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> links
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> imagination to both movement and the meaning of a "voluntary"
> >> act.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Parts
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> it are offputting, primitives thinking like children stuff
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "in the air" for example. But at present the concepts of
> >> creativity
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> imagination are thoroughly entangled, so its curious to
> >>>>>>>>>>> see that
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> two
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> concepts are linked.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Just cause its old doesn't mean its useless, he found
> >>>>>>>>>>> himself
> >> writing.
> >>>>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Its difficult, of course, to know the extent to which
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty old
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> approaches
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to a pesum
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Andy Blunden
> >>>>>>>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know we want to keep this relatively contemporary, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it may
> >> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> worth
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> noting that Hegel's Psychology also gave a prominent
> >>>>>>>>>>>> place to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Imagination
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in the section on Representation, mediating between
> >> Recollection and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Memory. He structured Imagination as (1) Reproductive
> >> Imagination,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (2)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Associative Imagination (3) Productive Imagination, which
> >>>>>>>>>>>> he
> >> says
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> leads
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the Sign, which he describes as Productive Memory. In
> >>>>>>>>>>>> other
> >> words,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> transition from immediate sensation to Intellect is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accomplished
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> through
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> these three grades of Imagination.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---
> >> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are some questions I have after reading Strawson
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >> Williams.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kant et al (including Russian developmentalists whose
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work i am
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> trying
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mine for empirical
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies and already-accumulated results) speak of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> productive imagination. The Russians write that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> productive imagination
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> develops.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> At first I thought that the use of productive implies
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> there
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> must
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> be a
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> kind of ​imagination called UNproductive imagination.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But I
> >> learned
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> instead the idea of RE-productive imagination appears
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and is
> >> linked
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, it seems that imagination is an ineluctable part of
> >> anticipation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> memory.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Imagine that!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 12:16 PM, HENRY SHONERD <
> >> hshonerd@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                   wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Strawson provides a long view historically on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination
> >> (starting
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hume and Kant), Williams a more contemporaneous look,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >> provides
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> space
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for imagination not afforded by the socio-cultural as fixed.
> >> This,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> coupled
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Pelaprat and Cole on Gap/Imagination, gives me a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ground
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> take
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> part
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the thread on imagination. Of course, I start with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> preconceptions:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vera
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on creative collaboration and the cognitive grammarian
> >> Langacker on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbolic assemblies in discourse and cognitive domains,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> particularly
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> temporal. Everyday discourse, it seems to me, is full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> imagination
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> creativity. I am terribly interested in two aspects of
> >> temporality:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sequence and rhythm (including tempo and rhythmic
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> structure),
> >> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> must both figure in imagination and creativity, for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both
> >> individual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> distributed construals of cognition and feeling.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 13, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Larry Purss <
> >> lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry, Mike, and others interested in this topic.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I too see the affinities with notions of the third
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *space*
> >> and the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> analogy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to *gap-filling*
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am on holiday so limited access to internet.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, I wanted to mention Raymond Williams and his
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion
> >> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "structures
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of feeling" that David K references. This notion is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explored
> >> under
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of historical *styles* that exist as a *set* of
> >> modalities
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together.  This notion suggests there is a form of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing
> >> that is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forming
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but has not yet formed [but can be "felt"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [perceived??] if we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imaginatively.  Raymond explores the imaginal as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *style* Larry On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:38 PM, HENRY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SHONERD <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hshonerd@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike and Larry,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I promise to read your profer, but just want to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >> jazzed up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> am
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about this thread. My mind has been going wild, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind as
> >> Larry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> construes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I ended up just now with a triad, actually various
> >> triads,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> finally
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> found my old friend Serpinski. Part now of my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notebooks of
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> mind, as
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vera would construe it. I’ll be back! Gap adentro,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> luega
> pa’
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> fuera.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fractally yours,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Henry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 12, 2014, at 5:09 PM, mike cole
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those interested in the imagination thread,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached
> >> are two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> articles
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by philosophers who have worried about the issue.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My current interest stems from the work of CHAT
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theorists
> >> like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zaporozhets
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and his students who studied the development of
> >> imagination in a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, it turns out, goes back to Kant's notion of
> >> productive
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am not advocating going back to Kant, and have no
> >> intention of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> doing
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But these ideas seem worth pursuing as explicated in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> attached
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> texts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Through reading the Russians and then these
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophers, I
> >> came
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> upon
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea that perception and imagination are very closely
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked
> >> at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> several
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels of analysis. This is what, in our naivete,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ettienne
> >> and I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argued
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our paper on imagination sent around earlier as a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> access
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work of the blind-deaf psychologist, Alexander Suvorov.
> >> Moreover,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> views emphasize the future orientation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> perception/imagination
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process. I believe that these views have direct
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> relevance
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Kris's
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paper
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be found on the KrisRRQ thread, and also speak to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerns
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> role of different forms of symbolic play in development.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here are the papers on the imagination thread.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
> >> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> will
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful for those interested.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natural
> >> science
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> with an
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Imagination and Perception by P.F. Strawson.pdf>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural
> >>>>>>>>>>> science
> >> with an
> >>>>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural
> >>>>>>>>> science
> >> with an
> >>>>>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with
> > an
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > ________________________________
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--
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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