[Xmca-l] Re: Chomsky, Vygotsky, and phenomenology

[mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>]

If it all comes down to the learning paradox, Michael, which is not a bad
place to arrive at,
then might it be useful to gather together the various attempts by
socio-cultural-historical-activity folks to resolve or supercede the
problem. Right away several such critical discussions suggest themselves:

Fodor original
Bereiter
Newman, Griffin, & Cole
"bootstrappers" in general
.....

It should be encouraging to realize that one has arrived back at the same
place, and know it again in a fresh (and perhaps more powerful?) way.
mike



On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 7:50 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
wrote:
>
> Reading the response by ANL and ARL it comes back to the same damn
> argument about the learning paradox, which of course doubles back to the
> conversation on imagination (I keeps thinking my last realization will be
> that we were always just having a single conversation).  Fodor seems to be
> taking Chomsky's point that you can't recognize a word meaning unless that
> word meaning already existed.  I think that is central to his second
> critique that children can't understand words different than adults because
> then how would they understand each other - but implicit in this is what
> then suggests that children ever will become adults.  It is really, really
> hard to argue with when working from a closed logical system - the reason I
> think Fodor says Vygotsky makes a priori assumption.  But then the
> Leontiev's fall to their knees, hands stretched to the heaven just as
> Vygotsky, Dewey, Piaget, Bateson and so many others have done and say, your
> logic is unassailable but it does not explain humanity - in the end it is
> little more than clever idiocy (in the Deweyan sense).  We are going
> through exactly the same thing I think once again with all the discussions
> about learning analytics and Big Data.  In the end it is unassailable and
> it explains nothing.
>
> Michael
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
> on behalf of mike cole [mcole@ucsd.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 10:31 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Chomsky, Vygotsky, and phenomenology
>
> ​et al--
>
> Attached is a paper by ANL and ARL on Fodor. Relevant to the chomsky/LSV
> discussion​
>
>
> There is material on this subject aplenty on the topic at lchc.ucsd.edu
> if
> you google chomsky vygotsky luria leontiev as key words.
>
> IN GENERAL, a quick search of xmca through the lchc google search is a
> quick way to learn about prior discussions of current topics.
>
> mike
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Do you think Chomsky knows he is? Howard Gardner is a very generous
> fellow.
> >
> > On 17 December 2014 at 16:28, Martin John Packer <
> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > oh, I just read your second paragraph...
> > >
> > > Howard Gardner lists Noam Chomsky as one of the "founders of cognitive
> > > science," along with Jerome Bruner, John McCarthy, George Miller, and
> > Allen
> > > Newell (1985, p. 23).
> > >
> > > Gardner, H. (1985). The mind's new science: A history of the cognitive
> > > revolution. New York: Basic Books.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > On Dec 17, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well yes, and as linguistic and psychology student I was very proud
> of
> > > him
> > > > for his review, it made me laugh and laugh.  But Chomsky never read
> > > Piaget
> > > > or Vygotsky.  He would have been interested in Vygotsky's
> > interpretation
> > > of
> > > > Behaviousrism.
> > > >
> > > > As to cognitive psychology - well I suppose we should be pleased, but
> > > > Chomsky had no direct hand in that.
> > > >
> > > > Carol.
> > > >
> > > > On 17 December 2014 at 14:49, Martin John Packer <
> > > mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Chomsky knew enough about psychology to write a devastating review
> of
> > B.
> > > >> F. Skinner's book 'Verbal behavior,' which still makes very
> > interesting
> > > >> reading. And Chomsky's own book 'Syntactic Structures' was one of
> the
> > > key
> > > >> components in the emergence of cognitive psychology in the late
> 1950s,
> > > as
> > > >> Howard Gardner's book makes clear.
> > > >>
> > > >> Martin
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > > > Developmental psycholinguist
> > > > Academic, Researcher,  and Editor
> > > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > Developmental psycholinguist
> > Academic, Researcher,  and Editor
> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> >
>
>
> --
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>
>

-- 
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.