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*To*: "'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*Subject*: [Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics*From*: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>*Date*: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 00:26:39 +1100*In-reply-to*: <001601cffc1f$99d7b4b0$cd871e10$@net.il>*List-archive*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l>*List-help*: <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=help>*List-id*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l.mailman.ucsd.edu>*List-post*: <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*List-subscribe*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=subscribe>*List-unsubscribe*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=unsubscribe>*References*: <CAGVMwbUV9Jdf2XpAshWE0dCNcT1kHRTrpxGy=Ci2M3xR9N3rhQ@mail.gmail.com> <XZMu5rEUDHML08mmjLrVdv=XYjg@mail.gmail.com> <CAG1MBOEPoJ1e8oxrqePe8aFXZMu5rEUDHML08mmjLrVdv=XYjg@mail.gmail.com> <010f01cffaac$6ba77810$42f66830$@net.il> <CAG1MBOH4AD6+f09LQMLUWfnz0RjcRVuAsOLi-0sMbyGLPMFSxQ@mail.gmail.com> <007601cffb23$f57ada10$e0708e30$@net.il> <CAG1MBOHCrsdJ4O-636iyHE-GN=594FrzoKW_yE+gRzj=_4cvGQ@mail.gmail.com> <545E0AC5.6000007@mira.net> <CAG1MBOGsDVDgt9wWu9tPK5Z4Ba3Otps1pDPjO=M1bVDU2tOU6A@mail.gmail.com> <A4099CC2-FF13-43BB-B223-6B5980895445@gmail.com> <AB7FDEB6-EB69-4833-A1E2-7A2C1DDC1FAF@manchester.ac.uk> <86562269-9D51-4B30-AE99-B2F99428B27B@uniandes.edu.co> <545EB2EE.7090206@mira.net> <D0843342.4BFCF%lradford@laurentian.ca> <545F2B64.2050409@mira.net> <CFB43725-5A86-46E2-9FE1-4D39E5B08776@uniandes.edu.co> <545F60DE.9050@[77.126.73.233]> <001201cffc1c$5199c6f0$f4cd54d0$@net.il> <545F65C8.3000409@mira.net> <001601cffc1f$99d7b4b0$cd871e10$@net.il>*Reply-to*: <ablunden@mira.net>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*Sender*: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>*User-agent*: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)

Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ anna sfard wrote:

There are two types of "validity" I think we can talk about here, Andy, the external - one that manifests itself in the fact that mathematics works for us in other things we do; and internal - the one that stems from strict adherence to the rules of the game (discourse). Re the latter, mathematical discourses are like the sorcerer's apprentice's broom: once put in motion, they get life of their own and nothing can stop them. Can somebody stop ME please? :-) anna -----Original Message-----From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net]Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 3:02 PMTo: anna sfard Cc: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity' Subject: Re: [Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics I think your quote expresses a truth, and an important truth. It is more precise, but it is what I meant when I said earlier that the unit of analysis "rotates.", with the mediator becoming the object. The statement is still kind of agnostic on the question, isn't it though, Anna? Mathematical relations are often only an approximation to things happening in the material world, and the validity of the mathematics is not thereby any the less for that. Andy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ anna sfard wrote:No, Andy, I don’t think this was, or should be, said. I apologize inadvance for quoting myself, but it would be too much to try to saythings anew in the middle of work on an all different text:"mathematical communication apparently reverses the developmentalorder known from colloquial discourses: whereas these latterdiscourses are created for the sake of communication about physicalreality, in mathematical discourse objects are created for the sake ofcommunication.True, also mathematical communication is supposed, eventually, tomediate practical activities, and thus to pertain, in one way oranother to the world of primary objects that predate the discourse.However, this fact may easily escape one’s attention. The realizationtrees of mathematical signifiers [for the sake of the presentconversation, you may replace the "realization trees" with "chains ofsignification"], although likely to have primary objects or processeson such objects at their basis, may be too rich and complex to beembraced at a glance. Leaving the concrete foundations of such treestemporarily out of sight may thus be the condition for the proficiency ofmathematical communication."Xmca-ing is addictive! anna -----Original Message----- From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2014 2:41 PM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics"Nothing outside the text" is a way of saying that "the text aloneforms the object."Would you agree, in the context of mathematics, that the text aloneforms the object?Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- *Andy Blunden* http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ Martin John Packer wrote:Who has said that there is nothing outside the text, Andy? NotFoucault,not Anna, not Huw, not me, not Ed, and not Luis so far as I can see.If this is the question that is at issue for you here, I think you'rethe only person for whom it is an issue.Martin On Nov 9, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:Is there really *nothing* outside the text?

**Follow-Ups**:**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**References**:**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Luis Radford <lradford@laurentian.ca>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

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