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*To*: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*Subject*: [Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics*From*: mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>*Date*: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 17:44:00 -0800*In-reply-to*: <545EB2EE.7090206@mira.net>*List-archive*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l>*List-help*: <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=help>*List-id*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l.mailman.ucsd.edu>*List-post*: <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*List-subscribe*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=subscribe>*List-unsubscribe*: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:xmca-l-request@mailman.ucsd.edu?subject=unsubscribe>*References*: <CAGVMwbUV9Jdf2XpAshWE0dCNcT1kHRTrpxGy=Ci2M3xR9N3rhQ@mail.gmail.com> <54585A04.8020708@mira.net> <AE980414-2565-49C5-881F-C1A33995A1D6@umich.edu> <3B024BCD-D68E-474C-A83A-35864F9C3027@gmail.com> <00ac01cff988$5b8fe860$12afb920$@netvision.net.il> <CAG1MBOFphRCuiDqhJMU34UZRcVPEzbCG-im91b2dxJuEesbBCA@mail.gmail.com> <006101cffa79$8f551b60$adff5220$@net.il> <XZMu5rEUDHML08mmjLrVdv=XYjg@mail.gmail.com> <CAG1MBOEPoJ1e8oxrqePe8aFXZMu5rEUDHML08mmjLrVdv=XYjg@mail.gmail.com> <010f01cffaac$6ba77810$42f66830$@net.il> <CAG1MBOH4AD6+f09LQMLUWfnz0RjcRVuAsOLi-0sMbyGLPMFSxQ@mail.gmail.com> <007601cffb23$f57ada10$e0708e30$@net.il> <CAG1MBOHCrsdJ4O-636iyHE-GN=594FrzoKW_yE+gRzj=_4cvGQ@mail.gmail.com> <545E0AC5.6000007@mira.net> <CAG1MBOGsDVDgt9wWu9tPK5Z4Ba3Otps1pDPjO=M1bVDU2tOU6A@mail.gmail.com> <A4099CC2-FF13-43BB-B223-6B5980895445@gmail.com> <AB7FDEB6-EB69-4833-A1E2-7A2C1DDC1FAF@manchester.ac.uk> <86562269-9D51-4B30-AE99-B2F99428B27B@uniandes.edu.co> <545EB2EE.7090206@mira.net>*Reply-to*: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>*Sender*: <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>

My impression is that, for me at least, the conversation about objectivities and conventions as been helpful in focusing my thoughts on the issue. I have not resolved the apparent, residual uncertainties or contradictions that seem to be at issue. Julian, might I start here, and get help with a next step: *"Thus, the objectivity of the rules of mathematics (as with logic) rest ultimately on the validity of the social practices that ensure maths a wider validity, beyond the conventions of the clique of mathematicians who run the discipline. Thus the discipline is itself disciplined."* It seems to me that a lot is riding on the interpretation of the property you call validity. It seems to me that the process of validation itself, passim science studies, needs to be considered here. At some point, it seems to me that validity means something very much like "useful" and useful as "surplus value." It would come very close to pragmatic experimentalism, as close as the phenomena in question allow such a parsing. So how are we to interpret, validity, in your formulation, which I am very interested in? mike On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > Oh dear! some times I despair of the possibility of communication. > That the Earth is round is a social convention, but it is not *only* a > social convention; it has a sound basis in material reality. That is to > say, Julian, no amount of discoursing and activity can alter the fact that > the world is round. The roundness of the Earth is also outside discourse > and activity, even though it is made meaningful and known for us only > thanks to discourse/activity. > Driving on the right is subject to discourse/activity. In about 1968 > Sweden changed from left to right. RIght-hand driving is *only* a social > convention. > Simple, eh? I would have thought so. > Andy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Andy Blunden* > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/ > > > Martin John Packer wrote: > >> And also that the earth is round is a convention! Go figure! >> Martin >> >> On Nov 8, 2014, at 5:55 PM, Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester. >> ac.uk> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I'm struggling to keep up here... Surely I didn't hear Andy Blunden say >>> that 'objectivity' implies stuff that can't be transformed? I'm sure I must >>> have misremembered that!.? >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.

**References**:**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Ed Wall <ewall@umich.edu>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*anna sfard <sfard@netvision.net.il>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*HENRY SHONERD <hshonerd@gmail.com>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Julian Williams <julian.williams@manchester.ac.uk>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>

**[Xmca-l] Re: Objectivity of mathematics***From:*Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

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