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[Xmca-l] In defense of Vygotsky [Over-complexity of concepts & projection of idealism] & [Reversion to subjective psychology]

This continues and extends from (and COMPLETES) my original post concerning Andy's breakdown of ANL vs. LSV.

There are about 8 points total... [copypasta is a starch of art]


7. [Over-complexity of concepts and projection of idealism]  and
8. [Reversion to subjective psychology]
(see original post below)

We seem to agree here.

These two points are linked because without #7 he cannot make the claim #8.

Now, I'm trying to understand the line of the rhetoric, and how this was motivated to be constructed as such. How transparent would ANL have had to be to twist the original theories? How full-throated was he? How much was "betrayal" and how much was just not understanding.

I suppose I am trying to rectify the charge of Leontiev as a Judas.

(Of course, there are those who say Judas did not actually betray, but only did what he was asked to do, by the man in question. )

--- clip from previous post below

>>Wed, 22 Oct 2014 06:28:48 +0000
>>Annalisa wrote:

>>_7th charge_: Over-complexity of concepts and projection of idealism
>>ANL attacks LSV's notion of concepts (scientific and everyday concepts) because the theory is too complicated (???), the reason being (per ANL) that LSV claims meaning is created through verbal communication --not speech, but communication-- of concepts alone (and not activity). This claim is in conflict with what you indicate is ANL's dogmatic concept of truth (as laid out in para above). The theory as posed by LSV can't involve material dealings, but "merely" communication using language. All this abstraction, according to ANL, effectively removes the child from the environment, rendering the child to be an "ideal subject" and the environment to be an "ideal environment," which, in interaction through communication, is supposed to develop the mind of the child. This is how it is ANL brands LSV an idealist and where the entire "bourgeois psychology" charge is derived.

>Andy's reply to #7 above:

---------- ---------- ---------- ----------
---------- ---------- ---------- ----------

>>_8th charge_: Reversion to subjective psychology
>> In a coup de tête (pun intended), ANL makes a last charge that LSV has shifted any "problem of the environment" onto an abstract level of the psyche, and as such, this move reverts to the realm of the subjective practices rampant in psychology studies of the day, making it, not only removed from the material methods vital to Marxist thought, but essentially unscientific and specious.

> Andy's reply to #8 above:
> Yes, a false charge.

>>--end of the end!!