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[Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL

Actually, Juan, I have a paper in press written in Spanish with a student of mine. It only touches on the connection with Marx, but it might be of interest.

Duque Serna, M. P., & Packer, M. J. Pensamiento y Lenguaje, y el proyecto de Vygotsky para resolver la crisis de la psicología. Tesis Psicologica, in press.


On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:57 AM, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:

> Hi Juan, Annalisa,
> The relationship between LSV and Marx is certainly something that we have discussed here on xmca.  My own contribution includes a paper published a few years ago, which I would be happy to send to you:
> Packer, M. J. (2008). Is Vygotsky relevant? Vygotsky’s Marxist psychology. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 15(1), 8-31.
> Martin
> On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:27 AM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu> wrote:
>> Hello Juan,
>> I agree with you that one must understand Marxism to understand Vygotsky clearly. Darwin's theory too. My grasp upon these topics is tenuous and I would benefit to know more.
>> In my past, it has been difficult to enjoy dispassionate conversations about Marxism in my circles without the distractions of how much I don't know about Marxism, or how much Marx didn't know about capitalism; neither position is helpful. Perhaps Marxism is a hot potato still.
>> Certainly there are claims that even the Soviets did not understood Marxism properly and that that may be why Vygotsky had such a hard time. If Marxism has been so difficult a topic, why should it be different for us who have come late to the table? We do have the power of hindsight, but has this helped?
>> For any thinker's work, it is highly relevant to understand the contemporary milieu in which that person worked. That is why I look to historical context to unlock Vygotsky's work, not just his texts. However, I find a political specter rises from the grave when discussing Marxism and kills all prospects before understanding can begin. It is perplexing. I wonder if it is why Vygotsky will remain elusive to us post-moderns.
>> I wish I could read the Castorina & Baquero paper, but I cannot read Spanish very well. Would it be asking too much of you to list the relevant points made in that paper? I would very much be interested!
>> Regards,
>> Annalisa 
>> ________________________________________
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of Juan Duarte <juanma.duarte@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:39 AM
>> To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL
>> I´m sorry for couldn´t answer -neither red all the messages- previously.
>> But what i was reffering was precisely the fact that the "unit of analysis"
>> in Vigotsky is not understandable without taking Marx and Engels method, as
>> Vygotsky himself writes, for example, in his manuscript The historical
>> meaning of the chrisis in psychology.
>> There´s is the need of psychology´s own Das Kapital. And the units of
>> analisis in LV are built in a dialectical way. So, it´s -for me, at least-
>> surprising to read so much about the marxist psychologist, and preciselly
>> about method, and very few comments about the fact he was marxist. To
>> understand the concept of "unit of analysis" is to know, for example, the
>> method of Das Kapital, where Marx takes the value as a cell, unit of
>> diverse and opposits, change value and use value, wich cannot be separated
>> without loosing the whole. So is the use of Meaning (unit of though and
>> language), for example.
>> Well, that´s my point. And know that there are many that thake this point
>> of view. Andy, for example.
>> Thanks a lot for the fruitful interchange.
>> I send you, if anyone is interested, an article about the marxism in LV (in
>> spanish). Here, in Argentina, Jose Castorina and Ricardo Baquero have
>> worked through this line, in a very interesting work.
>> Juan Duarte (Argentina).
>> 2014-10-20 21:08 GMT-03:00 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>:
>>> Returning to Leontyev's critique of Vygotsky, ANL claimed that
>>> perezhivanie, as a manifestation of the whole personality, cannot be the
>>> determinant of personality, because that would be a logical circle. But it
>>> seems to me that ANL failed to understand how Vygotsky’s analysis by units
>>> allows him to avoid the reductionism into which ANL then ventures. If a
>>> complex process is to be explained by something _else_, then its analysis
>>> is _reduced_  to the analysis of that something else. Analysis by units
>>> allows Vygotsky to avoid reductionism because the analysis begins from a
>>> concept of the whole complex process represented in a unit, not the whole,
>>> but a small fragment of the whole, such that the whole can be seen as being
>>> made up of very many such fragments only. Absent Vygotsky's method of
>>> analysis by units, and Leontyev's Activity Theory is in danger of
>>> collapsing to a reductionism that actually explains nothing.
>>> Andy
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/